Name 1 33 year old defenceman who is still elite after reinventing themselves? Defenceman of his calibre are like forwards of his calibre but the drop off is even faster due to the incredible physical tole his style comes with. He already looks like he's declined from his mid 20's. He's also going to want to recoup money he didn't get during his prime on his next contract and some dumb old school GM will give him over 7 million and term on the open market.

Nice job.

Elite defensemen age well. You got one without giving up a core piece while providing value to STal.

It is my duty to disagree with you

I would say Ryan Suter is the best comparison to Pietrangelo. And in my opinion Suter is still a top-25 defenseman in the league at age 33. Both of them use their brain as their best asset. They can join the rush not because of speed but because of good timing/reads. Both rely on positioning and stickwork over heavy hitting. And neither guy gets hit very often. I can think of one instance in the last 4-5 yrs (!) where Pietrangelo got hit hard. It was vs Philadelphia, Tyrell Goulbourne.

You shouldn't ignore the future, but sacrificing the next 5 years because what might happen 7 years from now is a horrible way to run a sports team.

That thinking would have keep Toronto from signing Tavares at a much more demanding position.

This is pretty much the accepted trade between TOR and STL. Fair to both sides. Also, to people saying he's declined... IMO him having triplets this past summer has had a huge effect on him. He also was out a few games with injury. He's looked like his old self recently and last year was one of his best of his career.

Brent Burns is doing well too. So is Giordano, Letang, Byfuglien, Yandle, Weber and many others

Agreed. Tavares and Petro are same age both in their prime and it would be bad NOT to try and get him if we can. He is going to be good until 35.. he is like Getzlaf on D. Always finds ways to stay productive and relevant

Brent Burns
Mark Giordano
Ryan Suter
Duncan Keith
Zdeno Chara
Scott Niedermeyer if you want to start going back a few years

Sure...can debate if Pietrangelo is in the same style as the guys above....and no..there's no guarantees he would continue to perform at an elite level through his early 30s. But you also can't guarantee he won't. We have no idea what he'd be hoping to get as a potential UFA at age 30. 8 years and $9m? No thanks. But if he gets traded to a contending team and has a chance to play out the back end of his career always fighting for a cup...maybe he's willing to come in lower...we don't know anything as far as future skill drop off nor cap space required to re-sign him.

And from that perspective...each of your opinions has just as likely as chance to turn out to be right, IMO.

It's always smart to think about the future, but realistically, what holes are the Leafs going to need to fill in the next 5-ish years? They have superstars; they'll find role players to fit under cap, their goalie is top-5 in the league and should continue to be. The hole is on defense, getting another top pair guy. Waiting for Liljegren might sound like the best plan, but what if he just never works out? Would they draft a guy with a 2019 1st in the mid-20s that can be an impact NHLer faster than Liljegren or Durzi? I don't think so.

The way I see it, moving some young pieces now would suck, but waiting until the team has no Marleau, no Kadri (or expensive Kadri), aging Tavares, expensive Andersen, and ELC/league min. depth before they finally round out the defense could end up being a failure.

And before the response of "we rank as a good defensive team", take a look at the shot quality that Toronto gives up. Over the long run, it will be an issue, even if it hasn't been thus far in this season. Using Micah's awesome charts (https://www.hockeyviz.com/team/TOR/1819) the Leafs are giving up 7% more threatening chances than the league average. Tampa gives up 4% less than league avg. Boston 7% less.

Well you did name 1 guy. Still I do think that at 30 he'll demand as much term as he can get and on the open market someone will offer him 7 years and over 7 million and I would never pay a 30 year old that kind of money unless they were a super elite player, which Pietrangelo is not. Elite yes but he's already fallen out of the top echelon of NHL defenceman. Younger players coming in have surpassed him and that won't slow down. He's a fine player but his age, cost and future decline are more than enough for me to say I am not interested.

What is being sacrificed by not trading high value assets for a defenceman who could very well already be in decline? Does Pietrangelo mean the Leafs will automatically win the cup? No it does not and while I do think he is a terrific defenceman, I also know that in the vast majority of cases, players decline in their 30's. Sure there are outliers but with how Pietrangelo is looking, I don't have a lot of confidence he is going to be one of those outliers. I don't think his skating is good enough to survive the increased speed that the NHL is moving towards at a fast rate.

Enjoy waiting

Gioradano and Burns are indeed still elite players, Suter is still great but I am not sure he is in the top level of defenceman still. Chara is not even close to elite anymore but still has an important role that he plays well. Kieth is still a good player but he is also not even close to elite anymore.

So really there are 2-3 30+ defenceman who are still top level.

Mike Green was a Norris runner up in 2010 at the age of 24 but is now just a pretty defenceman in the right situation and is far from a top pair guy in a best case scenario. Brent Seabrook is another guy who was a top end defenceman in his 20's and is probably a health scratch on more than a few teams. If you look through the voting for the Norris over the past decade or so, the age is getting younger and younger on average. Sure there are some guys who are always on the ballot but speed is everything in today's NHL and since the overwhelming majority of human males begin losing a step in their 30's they begin declining.

Waiting for what? The Leafs as they are right now could very well win the cup. I guarantee nothing but they have a tonne of depth, star power and a terrific goalie. The only thing they don't have is a top 10 defence. Will that be the reason they don't win the cup? Maybe, or maybe their elite offensive firepower will be enough to mask Hainsey's deficiencies and Andersen can steal a few games when need be. That is a framework that has worked for the Pens as recently as 3 seasons ago. Would I like to see a reinforcement to improve Rielly's partner? Yes I would, but I am a frugal person who thinks, overpaying is a mistake in 100% of cases. So I would rather see a trade that doesn't drastically alert the long term outlook of a club that is still very much young and learning.

Look...for the record, I agree that the Leafs should wait it out until the 20-21 season. With a cap expected to rise, Marleau off the books, the core all (hopefully) re-signed and prospects having a couple more years of seasoning...Leafs management would be in a better position to assess what they have and have the cap space to address what they lack.

That's simply my opinion though. The 'sacrifice' of not doing a deal like this can branch off in many different directions. What if we don't do the deal, Liljegren never pans out as anything more than a bottom pairing d-man or fringe second pairing...the first round draft pick is a bust...Kapanen holds out for $5m/year and Zaitsev regresses and his contract is immovable. If even one of those things happen and Pietrangelo performs at an elite level the next 1.5years...then you're sacrificing the fact that having him on the team for this year and next makes the Leafs better now and doesn't impact the future much at all.

Point is it's not clear cut either way. You trust your pro and amateur scouts to give you an accurate assessment of what the best and worst case scenarios are in a possible deal like this and determine if the reward is worth the risk.

Chara 8 years ago and Keith 2 years ago (when they were 33 as you requested)...were both elite d-men IMO. And Suter would easily be our 2nd best defenceman, at worst right now

I don't deny that they could tighten up defensively but the idea that 1 player will make all the difference is silly. Those shot charts are often read wrong and fans see the red and think yeah their defence is really bad. But really what those graphs show is that the Leafs defensive team play is pretty all over the map which leaves the slot and the points open way too much. That doesn't get fixed by Pietrangelo. To be honest, it has more to do with the coach convincing the players to play a more collapsing support style of defensive play in their own zone. Which I have been saying is needed for a long while. They were doing a much better job of that earlier in the season and have kind of gotten back to run and gun but that could easily be a mid season swoon situation that'll correct itself.

Watch a Leafs game and watch how many times a Leafs defenceman wins a battle in the corner and chips it up the boards to where a winger should be but that winger has already bailed hoping for a break up the ice. That is the biggest issue facing the Leafs. Young hungry forwards wanting offence before playing defence. The defensive rotation for this team is sometimes really bad and that gives other teams better chances than they should.

If one player won't make a difference then trade Rielly for a few first round picks

I do agree with you that tactics/systems are what drive the shot results, but it can't hurt to have a guy who plays defense for Team Canada getting the ice time over Ron Hainsey.

And I definitely agree that the Leafs forwards flying the zone is an issue. But think about having another weapon on the backend that can make passes out of his own end instead of chipping pucks up the boards.

Yes...they are terrible defending the cycle too. I don't think any one player can impact a team in hockey too significantly...but it's the collection of moves that build towards a contender. Adding Tavares and going JT-Matthews-Kadri strong up the middle. Trading for Andersen a couple years ago. Emergence of Rielly. Drafting Nylander and Marner and watching as they get more comfortable as pros.

When you look at the D...you have to ask where is there room to grow? For me it's in the hope that Sandin/Liljegren...maybe a Rosen can all be effective NHL'ers while on ELC's. But you can't also deny the fact that putting Pietrangelo in the #1 RHD slot takes responsibilities away from Hainsey, Zaitsev and Ozighanov and gives those guys roles more suited to their capabilities. When skill is added to the very top of the depth chart, the trickle down effect can have a much greater impact than going and getting a 2nd or 3rd pairing depth guy.

8 years ago and even 2 years ago was a different time. The NHL is changing in a big way. LA Kings are built for the era that was still happening 8 years ago and look at them now. Speed is everything and its the future of the NHL. We can't keep looking at the past and say it worked then so why not now. It was a different time.

Just want to say that I enjoy talking about these kinds of things with you guys and I hope it doesn't look like I think there's only one way to approach a team's situation.

Gio, Burns, Suter, Weber

Of course. However, is the cost of Pietrangelo worth what he'll contribute. Essentially, if they win the cup this year or next the trade is a win, if they don't and Liljegren becomes a contributor in St Louis then the trade is a flop. Yes he would be a massive upgrade over Hainsey but is he a massive upgrade over Liljegren in 2 years? Will he even be with the club after next season? The guy is not going to sign a deal less than 5 years in length and 7 million a year. I don't think he'll be worth that and I am not giving up the package it'll take to get him, just to watch him walk next season.

You are a gentleman and a smart guy my friend! Always a pleasure, even if I am frustratingly rigid in my thinking. Lol

Weber isn't elite and Suter isn't either. Burns and Gio are right there with Rielly for Norris front runners. Suter and Weber though are well behind the top defenceman in the NHL.