Okay, my views on a Pesce trade are well known, but come on man. This is comical.

Canes decline, Pesce is not going anywhere.

In what way?
Do you think the trade leans in Carolina's favor? Or Toronto's?
Please elaborate.
Thanks!

How so. Because it’s inline with what Carolina might actually demand for him as opposed to what Leafs fans on trade boards offer for him. Hardly comical at all.

Nylander for Pesce would be Hall for Larsson 2.0 (Pesce is very overrated on this site)
This would be Hall, Bear, and the oilers 2017 1st for Larsson.

Except Nylander is another year away from returning to 60+ points (Hall was ramping up instead).
After watching Carolina games Pesce is a very solid Defencemen on a cap friendly contract (Both of what the Leafs are in need of).
Rosen is LHD which will severely limit his NHL time (if any) while playing for the leafs.
The 1st is too offset Nylander's recent play.

So all in all, yes this seems fair to me. Both teams get what they want and it's not outrageous whatsoever.

Nylander is way more overrated than Pesce. Toronto's PK is awful and Pesce would certainly change that.

That is a huge overpayment for Pesce

Pesce is maybe 500k undervalue on his aav (Shea Theodore is better than Pesce in every way, ad only making 700k more).
He is a solid top 4 DFD, and would be perfect for Toronto. I will give you that.
Nylander was producing at his 60 point pace at the end of the season (over his last quarter).
Nylander was also snakebitten, and playing with scrubs who couldn't score to save their lives (Marleau and Brown). Hard to get points on a 1 man line.
Nylander was essentially, badly under performing his play. He shouldn't be moved 1-for-1, and even if he had been bad the whole season (he wasn't), you shouldn't trade assets away at low value. Hence why Nylander for Pesce would very quickly look like Hall for Larsson.

Also, just because its a team need, doesn't mean you should overpay to fill it. That was Edmonton's chief problem in the trade.
Here are some numbers for context. This is over Marner and Nylander's Career:

This is this season only:

Here is Pesce compared to Theodore to back up my first point:



Tl;dr
Pesce is a good Dman who would fit in Toronto very well.
You shouldn't overpay to get him.
Nylander looks poised to bounce back big time, don't trade low on him.

And the narrative that Nylander was bad all year is from tv heads who try to generate clicks. Unfortunatly that seeps into the conversation on here as those who don't watch him just hear that and see his raw point totals and think that the talking heads are saying everything in context.
They aren't.

I will say that Nylander's value is lower than it should be now, and if he were moved it would be selling low. My point is that he will return to normal and it would look like Hall for Larsson very quickly.

Lol
Nylander is super underrated right now. What the **** are you talking about man? Everyone thinks he sucks! Someone seriously offered Nick Jensen and a 2nd for him the other day, and everywhere you look is bad Nylander deals.
If you want to argue that he isnt a superstar you can (I would agree, I have him as a 1-2RW or a 2C).
You cannot possibly argue that he is overrated considering the hate thrown around at him from every direction by uniformed fans.

Toronto's Pk was league average. They lost to a top PP in the league. I agree it certainly needs work but to say it sucks is just.... wow.

If he would put more effort into the game I would agree that he should not be traded. I've seen a Zamboni go into the corners and come back down the ice faster than him. This reason, and his cap hit I think are what will eventually get him traded.

I do not dispute his potential. As it is high and no doubt given the right linemates and chances he would do well. But he needs to start trying.

That, right there is what I mean about the media heads talking.
This is a totally wrong take with no basis in reality.

Aside from when watching him and seeing he would rather change than backcheck. I've followed every game this year, and that has been the one thing that irks me about him. I can take that he was selfish which caused him to miss half the season which resulted in playing catch up.
But watching him play compared to say Moore, Kappy, Johansson etc. It was frustrating to see someone with so much talent just glide every shift, or if he did skate hard it was once every few shifts.

Media has nothing to do with it. As a Leafs fan you learn to ignore the Leafs Media

I'm saying by Leafs fans in general overrate Nylander on this site, and Boston went 7/16 on the PP in round one. Regular season stats mean nothing come playoff time and Boston proved that. Toronto has an excellent regular season team, but come playoff time, they don't have enough help on the back end. They added Muzzin and it still wasn't enough. They desperately need a RD.

You guys don’t wanna argue with Random. He’ll post a chart that shows Pesce as being Norris caliber then call him overrated and Nylander the next mvp. It’s quite comical.

Seems a little... *Dramatic pause for effect* ... random if you ask me.

You didn't pay attention then.

Nylander forces the turnover with some physical play pic.twitter.com/ImvPmaga67

— Flintor (@TheFlintor) April 21, 2019

Nylander outworks DeBrusk and takes back possession. pic.twitter.com/3fnX3dxG88

— Flintor (@TheFlintor) April 16, 2019

TV teaches people to watch the puck, in order to see the full picture, you either have to attend or really know what to look for. Nylander was on the edge of the screen throwing hits, backchecking hard and putting pressure on guys all series, and much of the year.
I mean, Nylander had more hits than checker brown, Mitch 'all heart' Marner, 6'3 200 lbs Matthews only had 1 more etc.

Alot of this take is just regular bad regurgitating tired media talking points, but I want to focus on the Leafs fans overrate Nylander part.

He is a 1-2RW or a 2C. His play has shown that over and over again. To ask for fair compensation for that calibre of player is not overrating him.
The other issue is that he is often traded for Pesce, who is a very good dfd, but overrated. Pesce is a top 4 DFD While Nylander is a 1-2 Transition winger (actually his transition is the part of his game that is elite within this league, the rest is the 1-2RW normal).

People like to point out Pesce's contract, but he isn't on that good of a contract when guys like Shea Theodore are way better at what Pesce does and only gets paid a little more (700k in Theodore's case). I posted a chart in this thread already comparing Pesce to Theodore if you want some context on that.

Leafs fans like to trade Nylander at full value, because you should never sell low on a player. He is going to bounce back, the eye test says it, logic says it, the numbers say it. he WILL bounce back, so there is no reason to trade him for a cent less than full value. I will agree he isn't at full value now, but there is no reason to make a panic trade and sell low, hence the valuation.

The way Pesce holds his stick makes him stand out more/worth more in today's market as a Defencemen. You could be right about everything else, but because he is a RHD, he is sought after and so done such as Theodore is swept under the rug.

I wouldn't listen to Jah. He literally cannot read a graph lol. I showed a chart that said Pesce (along with Gio) were very good Dmen, and he somehow thought the chart said they were both below league average. Im actually surprised he can type a sentence and breathe at the same time with the level of cognition he has demonstrated.
Here is that chart for context.
https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Defensive-D.png

The entire problem with this argument is that you're comparing Pesce to Theodore. Theodore is an OFD, Pesce is a DFD, you're comparing apples to oranges. The reason this trade makes so much sense and so many people post it, is because Pesce is an elite shut down D man, and Nylander is a very solid top 6 F. Carolina has a surplus of RD, and Toronto has a surplus of forwards. You need to watch more Carolina games if you think he's overrated. He gets top assignments and is on his off side.

I was actually saying that Theodore shuts down other teams better than Pesce does. I'll also include Gio (likely Norris winner and more offensive player) for some context. Theodore is REALLY underrated.

A Pesce deal that includes Nylander makes a ton of sense for both teams. I agree. Pesce would be awesome here in Toronto, and Nylander would be beloved by the Corsi boys.
Pesce is great. Nylander is game changing-ly fantastic.

Its why I compare it to hall for Larsson. Larsson is a good Dman that the oilers really needed, but to ONLY have gotten Larsson for Hall was the issue.
I'd rather move Kapanen + for Pesce, but if it had to be Nylander trade, more would have to be coming back as when Nylander rebounds, it'll look like Pesce (as good as he is) was not enough.

Lets look at another trade for example. Panarin for Saad. Panarin is borderline elite, Saad is very good. Saad brought something that the Hawks really needed, but they needed to get more back then they did for Panarin. Same thing for a Nylander for Pesce trade.

And when I say Pesce is overrated, I want to be clear that I am not saying he is bad. He is very good. Im saying he is valued too highly (people saying he is a top pair Dman and more). He is a Top4Dfd.

Another thing that makes a Nylander deal harder to swallow for a Leafs fan is his compatibility with Matthews. He is the yin to Mats yang. Nylander is good at transition, but not a great shooter, while Matthews is weaker at transition, but an elite shooter. They make eachother better to a crazy extent.
Here is a chart of Matthews expected goals this season. It is not labelled on he chart, but it is very obvious where Nylander was united with Matthews.

While I do not agree with everything you have written, I will say I understand what you mean. What would be a more even trade keeping in mind current and future potential of Nylander? Would you rather a Pick, Prospect or additional NHL ready player. Personally I'd pick a Prospect if the Draft Pool isn't great, or go with a Pick if the pool is good and the prospects Meh. I'd avoid another NHL ready player based purely on Cap Savings (unless they are incredibly cheap i.e Clarke Bishop)

I try to stay away from specifics due to not knowing the Canes team and system as well as I do the Leafs, but in any return I'd be looking for:
Pesce
1st/blue chip prospect
small depth piece/marlies player/c prospect

And I know that Dubas agrees with me. Reportedly (even in the depth of the hold out) the Leafs were asking for Slavin.