I think his complete ineptitude and lack of in-game adjustments plus his lack of line changing when things aren't working also his insistence on playing Freddy in the first game of every back to back instead of getting or trying to get creative is more than enough reason to fire him.

The defence is going to fine. Sandin is going to be really good, as will Liljegren and Rielly is going to still get better. Dermott is already solid and will only get better, thats going to be a very good top 4 for years to come. I do hope that they bring back Muzzin on a short term deal but I think that group could be something that you can build around.

That's more than fair. I'm just saying it's an in game adjustment that they could play with as a stop gap til Dermot is back up to speed. At best a few games. It's pretty clear that the Reilly Ceci pairing is having its struggles. And that's really one of my biggest beefs with Babcock - he doesn't mix things up enough

I tend to agree with you on this point. I think it's more to do with them having to listen to Babcock's stupid rants every day that is annoying them to the point that it's affecting their games. It seems when they are playing good its because they're ignoring him and just playing their game freely and without a care.

I'm not saying they can't/wont be good but more that they've been trying to find MO a proper D partner (someone who compliments him well), yes Dermott could be be that guy and I hope we bring Muzzin back also but if we can get a top pairing guy who can compliment Rielly then it pushes Dermott down the roster strengthening our d-core even more.

Maybe. But watching Marner this year is like watching a different player. He's still putting up points, mostly in odd man situations, but he's had some god awful brutal give away and is minus 5, whatever that's worth. Mostly though, you hardly see the kid smiling. Part of his jam is that it always looked like he was thoroughly enjoying himself out there, like he had fire in his belly. It looks like he's lost his spark this year.

Anyways, I like your optimism. But things don't always get better. Sometimes they get worse.

Oh my bad, I'm totally fine with in game adjustment to see how he does. I was picturing Babcock putting him there and leaving him there until everyone but him realizes it's not working and being to stubborn to change the pairings around.

And I don't think Babs is draining them, I am just not sure they are getting the right instruction. Two many times, guys are going to the wrong side of the play in the defensive zone. Thats instruction.

For me, it's mostly that he plays to not lose, and seems to stick with that approach even when he's losing. With the talent he has at his disposal he should be playing to win. It's a simple but important difference.

I think Liljegren could be that guy.

I see that too but I think he's putting too much pressure on himself and is trying to do too much. He's still putting up the points so its not like he's been terrible. I think Nylander has really taken more control of his game and has looked terrific. I like the attitude but the structure is just not tight. Perhaps its just early and they do have a lot of new players, maybe they'll shape up.

Your probably right he's draining me so I assumed having to be around him every day would naturally drain them

This is probably the most sound post of this thread. It is early still and there has been some pretty major roster and coaching turnover from last year.

But there are some pretty concerning red flags popping up. And this is leafland...

I think the 20 game mark will be a better indication of what this team is. And if they are at or under 500 at that point the noise around sacking Babcock will get pretty damn loud.. do you remember when leaf fans were chanting during a game to fire Wilson? and soon after he was canned. Fun times..

Great point but that kinda proves my point if that's his thought process then he's too incompetent to be coaching a roster like the Leafs. To me, he's perfect for a team that needs a culture change but he can only take them so far until he needs to be replaced by someone who can take that team to the next level. Your right it is a simple but important difference.

I hope so, but I can't see him stepping in and being that guy right away. I think he will need some sheltered minutes to start his NHL career off then possibly. If we can get someone who can step into that role right away I think it will make a huge difference for Rielly as well as the rest of the team... Once Babcock gets fired of course, plus it would strengthen our d that much more kinda like when we traded for Muzzin.

Cashing those $15M bonus cheques can have a blinding effect. Let's hope it's temporary.

Spot on.

I feel like Babcock's a bit underrated as a coach because his main flaw (his talent evaluation) is REALLY visible. He's gotten a fair bit out of some crummy rosters and had plenty of success with talented ones, as in Detroit. Right now the only thing he seems to be totally screwing up is the Cody Ceci Experience, which can be fixed by trading Ceci for literally nothing. There isn't really a bad way to do Toronto's lines as long as the top pair is either Muzzin or Rielly with Barrie, which seems inevitable in a no-Ceci setup. Even if Babs doesn't trust Barrie as a shutdown RD, the Leafs could have an RD group of Barrie-Marincin-Holl, which would force either Barrie (a really good defenceman) or Marincin (solid defensively if nothing else) as the shutdown RD. Yeah, 2 straight first round losses is rough for a team that has top-5 aspirations, but Boston's a top-5 team in the NHL and arguably has an entire line of players who would be Toronto's best player. This team needs to get lucky to beat Boston regardless of coaching and hasn't yet. Trade Ceci, keep Babs, and wait until you do. Gotta be lucky + good to win a cup.

I'd be willing as a coach to try Muzzin-Lilly as a shutdown pair for like 10-20 games and see where the underlyings end up. I don't think it could torpedo the season and I kinda wanna see if Lilly's ready. I don't think Babs thinks this way.

In terms of the GMing, I don't get why a kajillion people are staying Stecher to TOR. Realistically, the Leafs 2/3RD is gonna be a revolving door for the forseeable future and Stecher's good, but a) probably wouldn't have Babs' trust and b) isn't very different from Marincin

https://gyazo.com/2efef49f977651b28a1ce825dbf883a7

Giving up Petan, Brooks and a pick for that upgrade is very much not worth it.

https://gyazo.com/afc08d7e20fc6e67bd0615d1fa3c3cde

Kapanen for Fast makes no sense for TOR, especially with a pick thrown in. Hutch will probably be fine as the backup, and throwing in a pick doesn't help. Toronto's strategy for working around the big contracts hinges on having lots of picks to feasibly get more depth guys on cheap contracts through draft+develop or small trades. That's been Kyle's strong suit so far, they should lean into it and extend the window in the hopes of getting lucky.

Interesting take on Babcock's short coming being talent evaluation. Once you pointed that out it seemed almost laughably obvious me. And it explains why Hyman (who I like) can do no wrong in Babcock's eyes, while a guy like Nylander seems to have a hard time doing anything right for Mike.

It also sets up a possible irreconcilable tension between how Dubas and Babs see how the team achieves success. Because I would say that talent evaluation is one of Dubas's strengths. Contract negotiations? Maybe not so much.

Dubas's strength is in finding good players on the fringes (Holl with the Marlies, Petan, Ennis, Spezza, Shore), in being patient enough with busts to recoup value (Goat) and in development (Moore, Marchment with the Marlies, among others). He definitely values skill more than Babs, but idk if it's irreconcilable. Hyman in the top-6 makes a decent amount of sense, pairing him with Marner makes a ton of sense since Marner has trouble driving play at evens (Hyman's main strength). Helps keep the bottom-6 strong too, which is important for a team that probably wins more games with depth than stars. Babs has at least had the sense to keep Nylander with Matthews this year. I think they can feasibly make it work in a no-Ceci scenario, unless Babcock actively goes against Dubas over the grit/skill divide. Plenty of teams in sports have had success with iffy relationships between coach and management (Larry Brown's Pistons, Harbaugh's 49ers, etc.) If Babs wants a shutdown D, see if you can find a way to grab Niklas Hjalmarsson (not a bad idea in general, the Leafs could use a guy who just completely stops the hockey for a shift).

Yeah the Nylander and Matthews contracts were iffy and the Marner deal's an oof and a half.

This is a really solid assessment. Thanks, Pie.

Just to ge clear, I have no issue at all with Hymans game. It's pretty obvious what he brings to the team and the impact that he has on his line - last year and the years before. I'm just pointing out how Babs' never ending praise of Zak speaks to what he values in a player within your suggestion of how Babcock struggles with talent evaluation. That's not a knock on Hyman. It's more about the difference in how Dubas and Babcock might see how the team should be constructed and then deployed.

I don't think Babcock will actively undermine Dubas. But I could see how his ego/personality could make it tough for him to adapt to the team that Dubas is building. That could definitely be a set up for a collision course. And if comes to that, I don't think Babcock survives it .

You're right that Babcock probably disagrees with Kyle's direction with this team, but I dunno how much that'll affect his situation. Dubas doesn't strike me as someone who immediately heads to confrontation. If anything, his weakness has been an unwillingness to head to confrontation, taking a harder line w/ Matthews or Marner might've saved the Leafs a few million against the cap. If he doesn't fire Babs, Babs can't fire him, so it seems relatively stable. Looking at this roster in a no-Ceci scenario, it's not clear how Babs would avoid adapting. He hasn't been overplaying the grit guys in the forward corps, and the grittiest guys in the D corps would be Muzzin and Marincin: the ideal shutdown pair.

Realistically, if Babcock decides to publicly feud with Dubas he might be gone, but I don't think his seat's as hot as people think. Babcock's probably fine if the Leafs make the 2nd round, and I could see him surviving another first round exit if a) it goes to 7 and b) it's against either Boston or Tampa.

Ah man, you're really kinda souring my night. I was feeling much better about things when I had myself convinced that Babcock would be gone in another 10 games and I wouldn't need to hear him talk about gud pros, being a gud man, eating right, drinking right, sleeping right, and the virtues of the hunting channel..

You might be right. His seat might not be as hot as I was hoping. But if the leafs are still sitting around 500 at the 20 game mark then the fire Babcock noise will definitely get louder.

Sorry. The fans might get him fired if the noise gets loud enough, Toronto's historically been pretty receptive to the fanbase.