Oh, now I get it.

Yes, that's a nice outcome for us, but I don't think that Toronto goes to all that trouble to get a first and then moves it on to us for just Josh Manson and Isac Lundestrom. But maybe they do.

I think that you've quite accurately pointed out the weakness in this scenario: finding an adequate, properly-priced free-agent replacement for Andersen, It's my fault, because this is the element into which I put the least thought. It just goes to show you that yet again, yet again, once you get blinded by the flashbulb of your own brilliance, you frequently overlook stuff in the shadows.

I don't blame you; that's a hard thing to do. Goaltender is such a fickle position and yet it holds the most weight. It's almost never that you aren't making a legitimate gamble when acquiring a goalie who you expect to play a significant number of games, whether it be through trade or free agency. I'm not a huge fan of Lamoriello's tenure in Toronto, but getting Freddie was a stellar move.

I know you are a ducks fan, but my goodness this is unreasonable and will feed Leaf fans value egos.

Kapanen is not worth any more than a first, which is around the same value of Manson. you might be happy with it, but sorry, Murray would hang up the phone with this deal. It's a 1 for 1 or nothing... not throwing in a good prospect here at all.

I think most teams would be disappointed with Kapanen on their top six too.

First off, I find it hard to believe that the Leafs will be able to compete against the East's best when their goalie is 33 years old and has never played more than 41 games in a season. At best, Khudobin is an excellent backup. Keep in mind Dallas is a team that plays excellent defense, so yes, he has great numbers, but yes, he also gets a tremendous amount of support. Ideally, you would need to find a solid replacement for Andersen. Murray and Jarry come to mind, though Jarry is quite unproven outside of this past season. You could also look to Arizona IF you felt one of their $4 million goaltenders could carry the majority of the load for the next few seasons until Woll and Scott were NHL-ready.

As for Manson, my general thoughts on the issue of weighing deals is that the Leafs will somehow use their financial might to help a team CBO a contract. With Anaheim, there are multiple "helpful" options. The Leafs could potentially take on Kesler's LTIR contract plus take on a contract they plan to CBO, which would undoubtedly help them acquire a Josh Manson for far cheaper than he out to be. In theory, as per a suggestion from Pro Hockey Rumors, the Leafs could acquire Adam Henrique as part of a deal, CBO him and acquire Ryan Kesler and stick him on Robidas Island. Even with Kesler's deal being insured up to 80% I believe, that still relieves the Ducks of over $7.5 million dollars per season. In that case, I would say Kapanen alone gets you Mansion and Boston's 2020 1st round draft pick, when a CBO player like Henrique is included, in addition to Kesler.

Manson had 9 pts this season with unimpressive advanced defensive stats. Kapanen was on pace for 40+ as a 23 yr old while being the best pker on the leafs. He provides more defense then Manson does.
Kapanen>Manson

Liljegren is a top-15 prospect from the 2017. 30 pts in 40 games on one of the worst teams in the AHL while also being one of, if not the single best defensive player in the east, maybe the entire AHL. In what ****ing world is he a throw in on a trade? Also, Lundestrom who is a few months younger then Liljegren has 9 less points in 3 more games, AS A ****ING FORWARD.

I wouldn't trade Liljegren for Manson and Lunderstrom. Your values are seriously off. I'm hoping you don't know who Liljegren is, and you don't know that he was a top-10, likely top-5 defensemen in the AHL this year as a 20/21 year old and this was all a mistake.

Well we have Lehtonen/Holl/Dermott but Liljegren is still a top-15 prospect from his draft class and was one of, if not the best defensemen in the AHL this year...

I think Liljegren have a low top4 potential in him, Sandin having a legit top4 potential in him

Sandin has top-pairing/elite potential. He was better then Seider in his D+1. He is being compared to Klingberg and Karlsson (bit of a leafs wet dream but it's more his development curve and playstyle.)

Liljegren has fringe top pairing/top-4 potential. I think he will be a solid 2-way guy that solidifies the top-4. He's being compared to OEL, with his low-end outcome being Severson.

I get that these likely won't happen but this is the potential, how their development is looking, and their AHL stats.

Any chance I could borrow your crystal ball one of these days?

I didn't say "will" once... nor do I ever. I don't know what "WILL" happen...

but one thing is for certain, and it's that Kapanen is not worth this package. All this is doing is feeding Leafs fans ego as to the value of their players.

Well, I respectfully disagree with you about the respective worths of Kapanen and Manson. As a dedicated Ducks fan, I think the value of this trade, in the context that I have constructed, is just right for the team. We would have a vastly improved defense, a balanced and improved right forward side, and additional draft picks, including the one from this trade. And as shown in the reprint above, "will" is the 15th word in your initial comment.

Why would it even occur to us to trade Henrique? He's been one of our top scorers over the past two-and-a-half seasons, he's. signed to an excellent contract for a #2 C, and he'll provide superlative leadership in the transition from Ryan Getzlaf to the new guys.

You may not even get the 2021 3rd as it could go to detroit

You hope!

I mean...



And regardless - because obviously that wasn't literal - your comment was laced with conjecture presented as fact.

It is possible that the OP, being a Ducks fan and a rather intelligent one imo, has a solid grasp on the values of the players/prospects within the organization - but it makes sense (because of your crystal ball) for you to come in and not only tell him he's wrong, but that you know better and Murray would not even consider it... Bringing up the ego of Leafs fans was ironic, to say the least.

Anyone can have a personal attachment to a player. There's some players I would love to have on my favorite teams that I would pay extra for.

But at the same time, this is a left field trade offer and usually this is done as a 1 for 1. Sure I used the word "will", which i guess i narrowed myself in a corner for... however my meaning of that is I don't claim that any trade "will" occur. My use of the word did not have to do with the trade, it had to do with people's reactions on this website.

Kapanen's value has suddenly surged in recent months on this website, even though he hasn't played a single game to cause this increase of value. I think he's one of the more overrated guys on this website... but if there is any team i could see getting the most value out of him, it would be the ducks. But if they're able to give up JUST Manson to get the deal done (which I think both sides would agree on), then it's unnecessary to add this much.

The basis of the trade makes sense, but it's an overpay. Most non-leaf fans would agree with this. As to NYI... i trust his input on more trades than I don't, and he's a high caliber poster... this does seem to be a bit of stargazing. He can get this player for much cheaper.

I would just like to say first that waking up this morning, I'm not proud of my last comment - I considered editing it soon after I posted it but I figured I should at least stand behind it. I was in a bad mood and the wording of your initial comment just rubbed me the wrong way. So thank you for a respectful reply to a comment that was unnecessarily snippy and sarcastic.

Having said that, I do thoroughly disagree with your valuation of Kapanen. Sure, I'm a bit biased as a Leafs fan, but I think he is underrated by the vast majority of non Leaf fans on here. Reason being his production puts him solidly in the territory of a top 6 winger, he's young, cheap, PK's, and is still an RFA after his deal expires. That's a valuable piece, imo, yet he's often written off as a '3rd liner'. I personally wouldn't trade him for Manson 1-for-1 (though I do like him) even considering the needs of the team.

This trade, however, I think is quite solid. The addition of Lundestrom, who is a fine prospect but nothing special, imo (probably tops out as a defensively inclined 3rd line C), is a good way to negate the value discrepancy (again imo) between Manson and Kapanen.

I think that this difference of opinion about the players' respective valuations is entirely legitimate. There is merit to the contention that Kapanen = Manson and nothing more is needed, and there is equal merit (at least in my mind and some others' whose opinion I respect) to the position that Anaheim has to contribute a little more. In support of my opinion, I'd like to offer a few more thoughts:

1. Originally, my idea was Manson and Max Jones for Kapanen and a sixth, which I suspect you would argue is even more Leafs-slanted. Jones, like Lundestrom, is a late-first-round pick but he's already in the NHL and I think has proven he's NHL-quality, although both he and Lundestrom probably won't get any higher than middle-6 status. Part of my thinking there was that the inclusion of Jones would be really appealing to the Maple Leafs because it obviates the need to re-sign Kyle Clifford, thereby "saving" Toronto a draft downgrade. The trade as it now stands is an improvement suggested by @SammyT_51 , whose opinion and judgment I respect even more than my own. I think the change argues in favor of adding something on Anaheim's side because Sammy, although a Toronto stalwart, is pretty even-handed when it comes to putting a value on talent.

2, Perhaps more to the point, here's my thinking about why I don't agree that Manson = Kapanen: it's because I don't think that Manson = Silfverberg. Kapanen on Anaheim's second line would be a virtual clone of Silf. It bears noting that the Ducks' top scorers recorded 43, 42, 42 and 39 (Silf) points this season. Kappy, in reduced time, scored 36. Put him on the ice for second-line minutes and first-team power play time and I think he'd crack 50 points easily. Because I've already traded Rakell in this scenario, Kapanen would contend with Henrique and Silf for team goal-scoring lead and be, at worst, the third-leading scorer on the Ducks. He's also, as my esteemed colleague @LeafsFanForSomeReason points out, a very capable penalty killer. In short, I don't believe that Manson = team's third-best scorer who also kills penalties.

3. I'm not underplaying Josh Manson at all. I think that alongside Morgan Rielly, he would set personal bests in ice time and points even if he isn't truly a #1 RD. He would fit in perfectly in Toronto. But his past two seasons have not impressed, and I think that this disappointment also reduces his trade value, as does the fact that his contract expires in two years. In contrast, as again @LeafsFanForSomeReason points out, Kapanen is under team control for a longer period of time. And then there is the overrated but still accurate conviction that forwards, especially those who have at least a modest scoring touch, are inherently more valuable that comparable defensemen.

In sum, the more I look at this trade, the more satisfied I am with it. But maybe I shouldn't have changed Sammy's third-round pick to a fourth.