Positionless hockey is coming

But that doesn't change that they were, in fact, terrible in their own end.

So my original point persists. Adding Marner as a 4th forward would absolutely help Toronto maintain possession for a larger portion of the game. If that's all you care about, then who cares if he'd be horrendous in his own zone? You'd have the puck more.

well it doesnt change that because it simply isnt true. They were not terrible in their own end by the simple fact that when they were on the ice the puck was pretty much always moved out of their end. Just because you dont like how the puck got out doesnt mean it was bad. You see, if they were bad in their own end, especially as bad as you say then they would never be able to get the puck in their own zone or they would lose it all the time and the other team would gain possession.
Crazy i know!
Marner on defence would work for something like a power play or man advantage, but he wouldnt work there regularly simply because he would have to re-vamp large parts of his game and how he uses the ice. Possession is incredibly difficult for a defender, that's why guys like peak Karlsson and Subban, and current guys like Makar are so damn good.

If you're in your own zone for 20% of the time, but allow 5x as many goals against as an average defensive defenseman would in your time back there, you're not doing your team any favors.

Interesting that you bring up Makar. Colorado is an example of a team that plays exceptional team defense. They're committed to 18 guys playing defensively responsible hockey. That's why average goaltenders like Grubauer and Kuemper look fantastic while playing there, then look "bad" when they move out to defensively inferior teams, and not vice versa (let's see how well Kuemper does in Washington this year). If Toronto approached team defense like Colorado does, they'd probably make it to the Finals.

except they didnt allow 5x as many goals against, in fact they allowed less goals because that's what happens when you allow less shots and less chances and the puck spends less time in the zone.
It's funny that i mention Makar because he's exactly the same and is one of the main reasons colorados 'team' defence is so good. As far as making goalies look better, lol come on man. Grubauer's best years were with the capitals and Kuemper put up significantly better numbers with the coyotes than he did with the aves.
oh, and Toronto does approach team defence like colorado, that's why both of them are ranked pretty closely in team defensive metrics.

It worked for Burns, Fedorov and Dandenault!

No they really don't.

Grubauer didn't get a Vezina nomination playing for Washington. Kuemper didn't win a Stanley Cup with Arizona. They're not playing any better or worse than they did on other teams, but their teams win anyway because they're not being exposed by poor team defense. The opposite goes for goaltenders in Toronto. They're actually playing lights out most of the time, but when they're superhuman and are only "average", they crap the bed because they don't have any help.

If you think that Toronto and Colorado play similar team defense, then I don't know what to tell you (except that you're wrong).

yes, they did
Grubauer was better in Washington and Kuemper was better in Arizona, Hell, Kuemper was awwwwful for a massive stretch in the playoffs and was only saved by how good colorado is.
As far as Toronto's goaltending playing lights out, lol, oh wow. Dude are you even trying? That's amazing, Andersen was hoooorrible for his last year there and Campbell was an 800 goalie for more than half the season last year but the leafs still finished with 115 points. The Leafs play excellent team defence and if you think otherwise, which you;d have to to say something hilarious like their goalies carry them then wow, you really have no idea what defence is. No wonder you think Karlsson and Subban were bad at it.
My god dude

My point is that goaltenders have to be better in Toronto than they do elsewhere because their team leaves them out to dry. Good goaltenders look bad on teams that play poor defense.

Average goaltenders go to Colorado and win in the postseason. Then they leave and become average again. Grubauer was absolutely terrible for Seattle. Let's see how Kuemper does in Washington.

Good goaltenders go to Toronto and struggle. Then they leave and become good again. Andersen just won a Jennings. Bernier just finished several good years on a bad Detroit team. If history is any indication, I expect Campbell to get a Vezina in Edmonton.

I never said that Toronto's goaltenders carry them. I said that Toronto's fantastic offense hides their defensive deficiencies and their goalies get thrown under the bus when their defensive deficiencies are exposed.

your point about goaltenders in toronto is wrong though because the leafs team defence is actually good and you're nonsense about them leaving goalies out to dry is a myth.
Average goaltenders in colorado have won once,before that Colorado hadnt made it out of the 2nd round since 2010 despite having that amazing team defence.
Andersen was terrible in toronto, got hurt, got worse, then was healthy for half a season and was good again and then got hurt again. His play has nothing to do with the leafs (or carolinas) team defence. His hips were reportedly so messed up that it was likely he'd never be the same goalie again. good on him for getting healthy and having a good half season before re-injuring himself.
Bernier has had one season near league average since being in detroit, he's been bad pretty much his entire tenure there, are you even looking at the numbers before you post this stuff?

You're the only person that things that Bernier wasn't good in Detroit. Ask any Detroit fan how Bernier was for them and they'll tell you he was their MVP.

One good goalie comes to Toronto and plays poorly? Ok, maybe it's on him.
Two goaltenders? Concerning, but still maybe a goaltender issue.
Three consecutive goaltenders? It's not a goaltender problem.

Tell me, how many times has Toronto gotten out of the second round since 2010?

i mean, you could literally look up bernier's numbers and see that, at best, he's been decidedly mediocre, and worse than he was in toronto since becoming a wing

One decent goalie comes to toronto (anderson) He plays good to very good, then he gets hurt and becomes very very bad so they dont re up him because of health concerns and he gets better
Then they Get Jack Campbell, a 29 year old back up who suddenly blossoms into a starter for a season and a half before becoming putrid for the back half of the season and cant make a save in an important game in the playoffs so they let him walk
The third goalie here is Murray, because the leafs have a single player left from before the Anderson era.
So again, how is this the leafs making goalies look bad when the goalies had the bulk of their success on the leafs?

Again you're judging goaltenders in a vacuum. You're looking at raw numbers and comparing a goaltender on a league basement team to a goaltender on a playoff team. Bernier was fantastic for the Red Wings. Here's an article that sums up his time in Detroit. "But there was Bernier proving once again, for the second straight season, the 33-year-old was easily the team’s 2020-21 MVP."

Andersen was fantastic in Anaheim, which is what led Toronto to trade for him in the first place. He's fantastic again in Carolina.

Campbell was fantastic in LA (a quality defensive team). Then he becomes "putrid" in Toronto before moving on to another team. Let's defer the remainder of this argument until next summer when we see how well Campbell does in Edmonton. Likewise, let's see if Murray does better or worse playing in Toronto.

lol, no Bernier has been bad to mediocre for detroit and no an article from the wings fansided site does not change that. Andersen was the back up in Anaheim, the leafs traded for him because they thought he could be a starter, they were right and he was good for a few years before he got hurt and looked toast. And again, good for him for re-finding his game before his hips gave out again, let's see if he can bounce back again.
Campbell was never fantastic in LA, and you're really really floundering if you think that. He was on the outs because LA had Quick on that massive deal and Petterson coming up so LA moved him. Dubas took a shot and Campbell became a starter....for a while. He was awful the back half of last year.
All three of these goalies had their best years in toronto. And yes, we will see how Campbell looks in Edmonton, an actual terrible defensive team.
As far as Murray goes, as long as he is healthy, he will provide goaltending at a level that Campbell did in toronto and not the back half of last year

LA had to make a decision between Campbell and Petersen. They chose the latter because he's 3 years younger. The majority of fans in LA that rue the fact that the Kings kept Petersen over Campbell and wish they could go back in time to fix that. Just go on the comments section at LAKI and ask. I'm a Kings fan and watched every game that Campbell played in LA (most in person), and he was downright fantastic.

even if he was downright fantastic in LA, the games i watched (yes, i watched many kings games) and the numbers showed him to be a good backup with some potential. He didnt show for sure that he could be a starter until he was a Leaf, but even then when he was playing the best hockey of his life his game had lots of flaws and his play and his play alone, coupled with some injuries are why the Leafs didnt sign him to a massive deal and only the Oilers, a team notorious for making terrible goaltending moves stepped up to the plate.
Even if Campbell plays at the peak level he did in Toronto for the oilers, he is going to get peppered in a way he never has been because the Leafs are a very good defensive team and limited shots and scoring chances, especially from high danger areas.

We established earlier in this thread that the Leafs are a middle third team when it comes to high-danger and mid-danger shots against. Their % looks good because they get more than their fair share of chances on offense, but the raw quantity of high- and mid-danger shots allowed against is average at best. Goaltenders don't care how many shots their own team takes at the other end when it comes to keeping the puck out of their own net, so "Scoring chances for %" and "HDCF%" aren't very helpful in that regard.

Shows how shallow the Leafs NHL Dman depth is. The seven from last year. Then the two Marlies Dalmstrom and Benn injured. Might not be one other Marlie who you could say be NHL capable.

since 2020 the leafs are 2nd in the NHL in HDCF% and 10th in raw HDCA. Colorado, a team you said has incredible team defence is 16th and 14th
The Leafs are also 7th in xGA and 3rd in xGA%. Colorado is 8th and 11th
so when you compare those to the actual shots, Colorado allowed 43 less medium danger shots through the entirety of last season. just over a shot every 2 games. And colorado allowed 7 more high danger shots against. The shot totals are noise at those levels and that extra load isnt going to make or break a goalie.
So, if Colorado's team defence is so amazing and and the Leafs is so bad that they leave goalies out to dry, why cant colorado separate themselves from Toronto in these numbers?

uh....no. it doesnt say that at all