No maybe about it, that is never getting you O'Reilly. The 1st is a proper start, the rest is piffle, especially if you expect max retention.

Nothing about that offer even raises one eyebrow in St. Louis.

I'm curious, what do guys like you expect Horvat to fetch? Horvat is putting up twice the points per game as O'Reilly this season, twice the goals, having twice the defensive impact than the so called 'selke caliber' center. Do you think he's going to fetch the world? Multiple 1sts, etc?

Isles don't answer the phone....Mayfield starts with a 1st rounder+

O'Reilly has been a better player than Horvat over his career imo. Either way both are going to be extremely expensive, i.e. more than the Leafs want to give up.

I don't agree. O'Reilly might not even be the 2nd best center available. Hell with the season he's having he might not even be the 3rd best center available. He and Toews are battling it out for 2nd ... and they haven't even been much better than Monahan either. There are a ton of options available at center and there aren't that many teams looking to move a big asset for one. Centers look like a buyers market this season.

St. Louis and Anaheim could just not trade them and try to sign them in the offseason. Toews will be relatively cheap imo.

Colorado comes to mind as a team that could REALLY use Horvat or O'Rielly among others.

That's the problem, who are the among others? Avalanche need a 2C ... who else?

I mean sure, St Louis could keep O'Reilly and try to sign him but why would they? They haven't been able to keep any big name UFAs ever since they won and it looks like O'Reilly's best seasons are behind him. Age has caught up to him. The team seems to recognize it too, he's lost 2 minutes of time on ice per game since 2 seasons ago. They don't really have anything to hide behind on that front.

Except I'm not asking for multiple 1sts. I'm not asking for anything. I'm saying what isn't going to get him. Not at all the same thing.

And can we please stop acting like everyone isn't also asking for max retention? Every time one of you guys pulls out this "You guys are asking for the moon" stuff, the retention and any of the other things people keep asking for conveniently gets magically vanished when you frame the question.

That's before we even get to all this clinging to a 10 game slump that ended six weeks ago. As if that puts him on clearance or something. And the fact that the Blues are not even in sell mode yet. Ya know, we're kinda using our captain at the moment. All this whining because somebody won't hand over their 1C playoff beast for the stuff you want to give away (as opposed to what they might actually want). How dare they!! Don't they know everyone only exists to placate Leafdom!!

Sheesh already.

Whoa whoa whoa, mister. Don't you know we're all supposed to happily cough up valuable players to Toronto for pennies on the dollar? Straighten up and fly right!

You aren't asking for multiple 1sts but you are asking for more than 1. It's quite relevant what you think the player who has been twice as effective or more this season will fetch compared to the player you are asking for more than the 1st + prospect for.

Retention isn't worth anything at the deadline unless its a 3rd team being brought in or multiple seasons worth of it. It's actually very little money remaining and is the cost of doing business. The trading team retains to get the best deal available. They aren't going to take a lesser package back because they won't have to retain for the 2 months remaining in the season that they've already given up on. It's a non-sense argument to make.

O'Reilly hasn't been your 1C this season. He's been your 2C for 2 seasons now behind Thomas (time on ice verifies this) and has lost even more of that time on ice this season compared to last. Your '1C' is playing a full 2 minutes less than he was 2 seasons ago. Don't come in here with that bull****. O'Reilly is no longer a 1C on a competitive team in the league and the Blues(and everyone else) know this.

The bigger picture is Ror is NOT resigning with St. Louis bro. He’s also a UFA after this season. You’re really not going to get the absurd return you are expecting. I’d say a high end prospect(s) and a first/third

Not to mention the retention on St Louis has zero risk considering he’s going to walk after this season anyways with an expiring contract.

This guy gets business ^

Oi vey...

1 - Horvat has exactly nothing to do with this. I honestly have no clue why you want to shoehorn him into it or what you think it means when it comes to a dealing between Toronto and St. Louis. I have even less of an inkling what my take on Horvat's trade value has to do with anything. It's all the height of irrelevance. Meanwhile, you aren't even bothering to debate the actual offer on this AGM that both myself and a non-Blues fan said they'd reject. Not. One. Word.

2 - Hahaha what???? The cost of doing retention business falls on the team asking for it. Like what are you on, dude? It's so easy for you to say it's not much money, you don't have to pay it. A nonsense argument, he says... I mean, holy projection, Batman.

3 - Ehh 1C is not determined by ice time. It's determined by matchups. This season, O'Reilly is 93 percentile usage. Last season, it was even higher. Thomas' usage is 77 percentile this season, was in the 50's last season. But please, person who only "watches" the Blues via stat sheet, tell us all so much more about it. Or maybe just settle the hell down with accusing others of slinging bull****. Just more pure projection.

Muh huh. And what pray tell is that "absurd return" that I've asked for?

The retention argument is always a fascinating one to see people make for deadline trades. It's like they didn't think about it at all

Retention has value due to 2 factors. Actual cost, money, and opportunity cost, the cap space they are retaining could have been used elsewhere. At the deadline, the actual cost is minimal since very little of the season is retaining. It's also going to be forced on you by any team making the trade...no contenders can fit O'Reilly's full 7+ mil cap hit in their cap picture. There's no value there since the money is minimal and you are going to be forced to do it regardless of who trade with. The opportunity cost is also nil as if they are moving O'Reilly, the season is already over for them.

This guy gets zip in this conversation so far. He hasn't even bothered to comment on the offer that was "rejected" in this AGM and he's spouting off overtly wrong claims as fact. In this thread, he gets only a set of scout merit badges for fallacies.

Riiiight. Because everyone knows retention is free is you wish it so!

What in the world? I swear I am an alien.

1 - Horvat has everything to do with it. He's the best center available and the deal that will set the marketplace. If you are arguing O'Reilly should get more, Horvat's expected price is the comparison point. O'Reilly has been much worse than Horvat this season so why would O'Reilly get in the same ballpark as Horvat?

2- The retention argument is always a fascinating one to see people make for deadline trades. It's like they didn't think about it at all

Retention has value due to 2 factors. Actual cost, money, and opportunity cost, the cap space they are retaining could have been used elsewhere. At the deadline, the actual cost is minimal since very little of the season is remaining. O'Reilly will be owed something around 750k. This is also the money St Louis saves by moving him to start with. They are an even player on the financial side. It's also going to be forced on you by any team making the trade...no contenders can fit O'Reilly's full 7+ mil cap hit in their cap picture. There's no value there since the money is minimal and you are going to be forced to do it regardless of who trade with. The opportunity cost is also nil as if they are moving O'Reilly, the season is already over for them.

3 - 1C is definitely dictated by ice time. Your 1C is the guy playing the most. If you want to say its by competition ... well O'Reilly has been getting caved in by the competition this season. He is losing that match up against the tough competition ... why would another team be expecting him to win it elsewhere? That's not value.

I understand this would most likely not be the return to get the deal done with St.louis, I even addressed that in my initial post. You saying it’s not even close to attaining Ror is aburd. I’d say the 1st,5th DSA and another prospect could get the deal done for a rental player.

Btw we are STILL waiting for either of you to say ONE WORD about why the Blues shouldn't or wouldn't reject this offer, which is supposedly the entire basis for your faux outrage. Are you EVER going to stay on topic or just resort to delusional tantrums the whole night?

I cannot even keep up with the sheer volume of fallacies that you are spewing, so I'm just gonna check out. Life is simply too short to educate brick walls.

"If you are arguing O'Reilly should get more... "

Like where TF did I ever say or imply any such thing? Enjoy your advanced delusions.

You haven't been able to speak to your arguments at all. This is why I feel the way I do ... and you can't offer anything as to why I am wrong. How are these logically invalid to be fallacies?

Like I said, enjoy your advanced delusions. I'm not interested in your Dunning-Kruger games.