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Toronto Maple Leafs 2022 2023 Season Discussion (Part 3)

Feb. 3, 2023 at 3:39 p.m.
#501
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
I feel two things are certain: Justin Holl is going nowhere and I give it a 60% chance Wayne Simmonds is on the roster game one.

I just have a feeling Sandin has never been the in the Leafs long term plans. Morgan Rielly is going nowhere (FML) and they had started the season with the intention of having a healthy Muzzin.

I love Sandin and would love him in this roster, especially over Rielly, but without a true shutdown D, it’s hard to place Sandin. His game is too similar to Rielly’s.

I have a feeling we might see:

Rielly Brodie
McCabe Liljegren
Giordano Holl

Sandin + Kerfoot moved up upgrades at forward


I just can't see such little thought of the future being given to the LD position. Gio is 84 years old and McCabe is not getting any younger either and has a lengthy injury history. There are guys in the system that I like, but not many and none who hold a candle to Sandin.
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Feb. 3, 2023 at 3:41 p.m.
#502
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
I just can't see such little thought of the future being given to the LD position. Gio is 84 years old and McCabe is not getting any younger either and has a lengthy injury history. There are guys in the system that I like, but not many and none who hold a candle to Sandin.


I couldn’t agree more, there’s just be a lot of talk about acquiring another LD. Might just be that, talk.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 3:46 p.m.
#503
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
I couldn’t agree more, there’s just be a lot of talk about acquiring another LD. Might just be that, talk.


I haven't seen a ton, really just the McCabe thing that seems to have actual smoke and if he can play both sides I gotta imagine he's going right. I hope you're wrong about both those predictions.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 3:54 p.m.
#504
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
I haven't seen a ton, really just the McCabe thing that seems to have actual smoke and if he can play both sides I gotta imagine he's going right. I hope you're wrong about both those predictions.


With McCabe, Gavrikov, and some believing they want to replace Muzzin’s hard nosed style of play, which IMO is warranted, it just wouldn’t shock me I guess if something like this happens.

I just also can’t see them going with 5 LD’s in the lineup.

It’s the Simmonds one I most want to be wrong about
Feb. 3, 2023 at 4:24 p.m.
#505
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Edited Feb. 3, 2023 at 5:04 p.m.
Quoting: MatthewsFan
With McCabe, Gavrikov, and some believing they want to replace Muzzin’s hard nosed style of play, which IMO is warranted, it just wouldn’t shock me I guess if something like this happens.

I just also can’t see them going with 5 LD’s in the lineup.

It’s the Simmonds one I most want to be wrong about


I'd be surprised by Gavrikov. He's not versatile, is a rental, and the reported price both for acquiring and extending him seems high. I do believe they want to fill Muzzin's shoes though... A move on D wouldn't shock me, but I don't see Sandin coming out of the picture.

I don't think they mind going 5 LD's so long as two can competently play the right.

I can't imagine that Simmonds would ride the pine all season and hurt more
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Feb. 3, 2023 at 4:41 p.m.
#506
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
I'd be surprised by Gavrikov. He's not versatile, is a rental, and the reported price both for acquiring and extending him seems high. I do believe they want to fill Muzzin's shoes though... A move on D wouldn't shock me, but I don't see Sandin coming out of the picture.

I don't think they mind going 5 LD's so long as two can competently play the right.

I can't imagine that Simmonds would ride the pine all season and hurt more


Gavrikov would be a terrible addition for so many reasons, cost to obtain/retain and he is not very good.

They have gone above and beyond with Holl, I think he is really liked in the room and management loves him. And all this consider, Giordano Holl have been an effective pairing.

I love Sandin Liljegren pair but they have struggled going up against heavier teams (BOS really exposed them).

I hope I am so wrong but I feel like IF a D is added it will be at the expense of Sandin going out.

As for Simmonds, check out his games played. All three BOS games, one of two against TBL, WSH, PHI, MIN, CGY, VGS they like his physical presence in the lineup. It’s just a guess but I wouldn’t be shocked if he is in the lineup game one against TBL.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 5:34 p.m.
#507
aadoyle
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Edited Feb. 3, 2023 at 5:39 p.m.
Quoting: MatthewsFan
Anyone else think Sandin days as a Leaf numbered? A lot of Jake McCabe noise


I dont want to but man Chycrun would look nice in a Leafs Jersey and on PP unit 1 CHEFS KISS

Like there was a saying by Luke Fox. Increasing offensive production dont just got to come from Forwards.

But man its tough as Sandin aint even in his prime yet and while last year was better I feel he still can do more than what were seeing.

Like if Dubas at the deadline went out and got

Chycrun + Bjugstand and Acciari I wouldnt be to upset.

Cause then u could do

Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Knies-Bjugstand-Acciari
Holmberg-Kampf-Engvall

Rielly-Liligren
Chycrun-Brodie
Gio-Holl

PP unit 1

Nylander-Tavares-Matthews
Chycrun-Marner


PP unit 2

Jarnkrok-Bunting-Bjugstand
Liligren-Rielly
Feb. 3, 2023 at 5:41 p.m.
#508
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Just spitballing

Now we all can agree Malhotra as the PP coach not great but one of his ideas honestly might be worth a look

That idea was when he had the big 4 split up on both units. And at the beginning there was success. And on HNIC and other Leafs shows they were discussing it and honestly I feel they arent wrong.

As imagine come playoff time we have 2 PP units who can make u wish u never took a penalty.

Think like (for now)

PP unit 1

Jarnkrok-Bunting-Matthews
Rielly-Marner

Unit 2

Nylander-Tavares-Engvall
Sandin-Liligren
Feb. 3, 2023 at 6:14 p.m.
#509
MatthewsFan
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Quoting: aadoyle
I dont want to but man Chycrun would look nice in a Leafs Jersey and on PP unit 1 CHEFS KISS

Like there was a saying by Luke Fox. Increasing offensive production dont just got to come from Forwards.

But man its tough as Sandin aint even in his prime yet and while last year was better I feel he still can do more than what were seeing.

Like if Dubas at the deadline went out and got

Chycrun + Bjugstand and Acciari I wouldnt be to upset.

Cause then u could do

Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Knies-Bjugstand-Acciari
Holmberg-Kampf-Engvall

Rielly-Liligren
Chycrun-Brodie
Gio-Holl

PP unit 1

Nylander-Tavares-Matthews
Chycrun-Marner


PP unit 2

Jarnkrok-Bunting-Bjugstand
Liligren-Rielly


The only way I could get behind a Chychrun deal is this:




Morgan Rielly has four 5v5 points in the last 17 games
and 3 PP points. And he has been out #1 defenseman for all them. If there was ever an opportunity to change the look of the Leafs, it was trading Rielly, not resigning him.

But that’s not a reality we live in, so no point in looking into the past. I would support a Chychrun deal as long as Keefe played him like a number 1. Which I’m not sure he would do.

Also, getting him will cost a lot, and like you have shown, is their only major addition. Bjugstand would be nice and I really like Jarnkrok but we need a legit top 6 scorer also.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 6:49 p.m.
#510
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Edited Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:07 p.m.
Quoting: MatthewsFan
The only way I could get behind a Chychrun deal is this:




Morgan Rielly has four 5v5 points in the last 17 games
and 3 PP points. And he has been out #1 defenseman for all them. If there was ever an opportunity to change the look of the Leafs, it was trading Rielly, not resigning him.

But that’s not a reality we live in, so no point in looking into the past. I would support a Chychrun deal as long as Keefe played him like a number 1. Which I’m not sure he would do.

Also, getting him will cost a lot, and like you have shown, is their only major addition. Bjugstand would be nice and I really like Jarnkrok but we need a legit top 6 scorer also.


In general Rielly is having a meh season but when u get hurt and miss time it happens. Got a feeling as he gets healthier he will improve.

As last year behind MacAvoy he was good. Down Town Sports explains things best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtNTYds0AbU&t=227s&ab_channel=DownTownSports

Adding Chycrun would help ease the tension and allow Rielly to play a lesser role and get healthy. As hes playing hurt rn its almost clear as day). And adding some offense to the blue line without sacrificing any defense wouldnt be a bad thing

But as I said before moving on from Sandin wouldnt be my ideal choice but if its to upgrade u got to explore it. As while Sandin-Liligren has been good against clamping teams like Boston or Tampa they seem to struggle.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:18 p.m.
#511
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Quoting: aadoyle
In general Rielly is having a meh season but when u get hurt and miss time it happens. Got a feeling as he gets healthier he will improve.

As last year behind MacAvoy he was good. Down Town Sports explains things best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtNTYds0AbU&t=227s&ab_channel=DownTownSports

Adding Chycrun would help ease the tension and allow Rielly to play a lesser role and get healthy. As hes playing hurt rn its almost clear as day). And adding some offense to the blue line without sacrificing any defense wouldnt be a bad thing

But as I said before moving on from Sandin wouldnt be my ideal choice but if its to upgrade u got to explore it. As while Sandin-Liligren has been good against clamping teams like Boston or Tampa they seem to struggle.


I’ve seen Stephen Brown’s vid and I normally agree with his takes but he could not be more wrong with Morgan Rielly.

Yes, he was a beast last year but how about going back further:

2021 7th in PP points
2020 25th in PP points
2019 46th in PP points
2018 10th in PP points

But this more than anything is what I can’t understand from the pro Rielly fans, he creates offence.

This is fukcin staggering




He goes on with “ throughout that time period he's also been one of the most impactful offensive defencemen in hockey, ranking above at least the 86th percentile in EV offence WAR in eight straight seasons. it's a trade-off”

Now for him to be an effective player for this team, if he is not creating offence, which he is not, he is a black freakin hole.

And you have to put up with this




There is not enough offence Morgan could do that will ever make me happy he is on this team. I’ll die on that hill.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:20 p.m.
#512
aadoyle
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Edited Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:34 p.m.
Quoting: MatthewsFan
I’ve seen Stephen Brown’s vid and I normally agree with his takes but he could not be more wrong with Morgan Rielly.

Yes, he was a beast last year but how about going back further:

2021 7th in PP points
2020 25th in PP points
2019 46th in PP points
2018 10th in PP points

But this more than anything is what I can’t understand from the pro Rielly fans, he creates offence.

This is fukcin staggering




He goes on with “ throughout that time period he's also been one of the most impactful offensive defencemen in hockey, ranking above at least the 86th percentile in EV offence WAR in eight straight seasons. it's a trade-off”

Now for him to be an effective player for this team, if he is not creating offence, which he is not, he is a black freakin hole.

And you have to put up with this




There is not enough offence Morgan could do that will ever make me happy he is on this team. I’ll die on that hill.


In general people got to realize Rielly is not a defensive Dman but does enough when healthy that makes us go alright we can live with that. He is the longest member of this team and when healthy is key to their success and offense. Plus if we look at the PP with vs without him he makes it better (DownTownSports vid discusses it) In the playoffs he did his job the rest didnt.

Even Jfresh says it https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1620988249916473345

Move on as its becoming redundant

As in the Tampa series

7 gp 3 goals and assists and stood up Rutta after a dangerous hit

Thats what we want from him rn but hes playing hurt so getting a guy like Chycrun would help ease the pressure and bring him back to his healthy ways with Brodie. As since both came back not great but going through a leg and rib injuries aint fun and missing games often affect play of Dman
Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:44 p.m.
#513
MatthewsFan
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Quoting: aadoyle
In general people got to realize Rielly is not a defensive Dman but does enough when healthy that makes us go alright we can live with that. He is the longest member of this team and when healthy is key to their success and offense. Plus if we look at the PP with vs without him he makes it better (DownTownSports vid discusses it) In the playoffs he did his job the rest didnt.

Even Jfresh says it https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1620988249916473345

Move on as its becoming redundant

As in the Tampa series

7 gp 3 goals and assists and stood up Rutta after a dangerous hit

Thats what we want from him rn but hes playing hurt so getting a guy like Chycrun would help ease the pressure and bring him back to his healthy ways with Brodie. As since both came back not great but going through a leg and rib injuries aint fun and missing games often affect play of Dman


There is not enough offence that Rielly can create that he doesn’t give up defending. It a freakin wash.

And when he is not producing, like right now, he is a black hole.
Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:47 p.m.
#514
aadoyle
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
There is not enough offence that Rielly can create that he doesn’t give up defending. It a freakin wash.

And when he is not producing, like right now, he is a black hole.


Because hes playing hurt its obvious, same with Brodie. Like when u watch how both are playing this year vs last year its crystal clear. And the issue is we got nobody else as when it comes to the tougher teams Sandin-Liligren struggle and Gio-Holl cant be a permeant top pairing as come playoffs Gio gonna run out of gas. That said despite being hurt on pace for 45 points in 67 games so not bad for an injured guy.

But in general Rielly when healthy does his job and if he does what he did last playoffs this series in the rematch got no problems. What will be needed though is for our bottom 6 or another Dman to also help with the scoring as it cant just be him and the big 4 lul. So as mentioned a guy like Chycrun could help solve that issue as he can take more of the responsibility from Rielly and allow him to take a lesser role until healthy
Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:53 p.m.
#515
MatthewsFan
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Quoting: aadoyle
Because hes playing hurt its obvious, same with Brodie. Like when u watch how both are playing this year vs last year its crystal clear. And the issue is we got nobody else as when it comes to the tougher teams Sandin-Liligren struggle and Gio-Holl cant be a permeant top pairing as come playoffs Gio gonna run out of gas. That said despite being hurt on pace for 45 points in 67 games so not bad for an injured guy.

But in general Rielly when healthy does his job and if he does what he did last playoffs this series in the rematch got no problems. What will be needed though is for our bottom 6 to also help with the scoring as it cant just be him and the big 4 lul. So as mentioned a guy like Chycrun could help solve that issue as he can take more of the responsibility from Rielly and allow him to take a lesser role until healthy


So if Brodie is hurt and can do this




Morgan gets a pass lol

Not going to tell you how to fan, like who you like
Feb. 3, 2023 at 7:54 p.m.
#516
aadoyle
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
So if Brodie is hurt and can do this




Morgan gets a pass lol

Not going to tell you how to fan, like who you like


I mean the fact hes doing that while hurt is impressive. As I can see it when he makes tight turns its like he staggers but hey 2nd will take it.

Still if we see more of what Zacha did to him got to think about moving him down to the 2nd pair with Rielly to get some lesser mins
Feb. 3, 2023 at 10:45 p.m.
#517
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Delete
Feb. 4, 2023 at 3:39 a.m.
#518
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Quoting: aadoyle
Because hes playing hurt its obvious, same with Brodie. Like when u watch how both are playing this year vs last year its crystal clear. And the issue is we got nobody else as when it comes to the tougher teams Sandin-Liligren struggle and Gio-Holl cant be a permeant top pairing as come playoffs Gio gonna run out of gas. That said despite being hurt on pace for 45 points in 67 games so not bad for an injured guy.

But in general Rielly when healthy does his job and if he does what he did last playoffs this series in the rematch got no problems. What will be needed though is for our bottom 6 or another Dman to also help with the scoring as it cant just be him and the big 4 lul. So as mentioned a guy like Chycrun could help solve that issue as he can take more of the responsibility from Rielly and allow him to take a lesser role until healthy


I got news for you... playoff games get tougher and he will be playing with something nagging him as all players deal with this every playoffs. If he's not healthy enough, time for him to sit out but when he's in the lineup, he's got to be better. No excuses.

I just don't know how to explain that if Dubas gets credit for signing the young core guys, then he should get equally criticized for the lack of scoring from the bottom six in the playoffs.

To me it seems he gets credit for good moves but some are shy to be critical of Dubas when it hasn't worked out.
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Feb. 4, 2023 at 9:49 a.m.
#519
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Feb. 4, 2023 at 12:10 p.m.
#520
aadoyle
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Edited Feb. 4, 2023 at 12:23 p.m.
Quoting: MatthewsFan




I mean sure but in the Boston game throw all that great stuff out the window as he and Liligren got murdered. And I noticed against teams who grind and forecheck or basically clamp down like the Bruins the pairing struggles bad.

Even the sports analysts went so do we have a pairing who can help us come playoff time or is this what we expect. As playoff hockey is very similar to what Boston was doing and if the pairing was a -3 then my concern is we could be in for a headache with them

As against anyone else that pairing was fantastic showing great promise but Boston and Tampa arent anyone else they are 2 of the 5 best teams in the NHL rn. So while I wouldnt like it if there is an upgrade go get it. To bad after the break Leafs dont get another matchup with Boston or Tampa before the TDL as would like to see how the pairing does after rest and against these teams. Basically try to show yea we dont need an upgrade. Well maybe the Oilers would be an indicator

But if Dubas trades Sandin and brings McCabe thats bad. But if its for someone like Chycrun got to explore.
Feb. 4, 2023 at 12:36 p.m.
#521
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Quoting: Nathaniel
I personally think they'd try McCabe as an RD more than anything.

Rielly - McCabe
Sandin - Brodie
Giordano - Liljegren
Timmins

I think Holl gets moved, I just can't see Sandin being moved unless it's as part of a Timo Meier sized trade


may be an unpopular opinion but mccabe isnt enough of a upgrade to warrant spending significant assets
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Feb. 4, 2023 at 12:47 p.m.
#522
aadoyle
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Quoting: leafs101
may be an unpopular opinion but mccabe isnt enough of a upgrade to warrant spending significant assets


In general been talking to Chicago fans they told me McCabe on the right side was a headache and hes better on the left which makes me go alright why we going to get him

So then if thats the case he makes no sense as unless your moving Sandin then whats the point. As even if Sandin brings you a nice wing u lose out on some blue line offense.

Now if they want a LD who can play RD and do good in it Chycrun. He occasionally plays RD with Ghost some of the time and has had good results

But still better to just go after a RD then go get a LD who can play RD as unless there is some plan for Sandin kind of makes no sense.
Feb. 4, 2023 at 12:48 p.m.
#523
leafs101
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Quoting: aadoyle
I dont want to but man Chycrun would look nice in a Leafs Jersey and on PP unit 1 CHEFS KISS

Like there was a saying by Luke Fox. Increasing offensive production dont just got to come from Forwards.

But man its tough as Sandin aint even in his prime yet and while last year was better I feel he still can do more than what were seeing.

Like if Dubas at the deadline went out and got

Chycrun + Bjugstand and Acciari I wouldnt be to upset.

Cause then u could do

Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Knies-Bjugstand-Acciari
Holmberg-Kampf-Engvall

Rielly-Liligren
Chycrun-Brodie
Gio-Holl

PP unit 1

Nylander-Tavares-Matthews
Chycrun-Marner


PP unit 2

Jarnkrok-Bunting-Bjugstand
Liligren-Rielly


dont underestimate the loss of kerfoot in this, say what you will but he's well trusted and the next man up for top 6 injury to any position
Feb. 4, 2023 at 12:51 p.m.
#524
leafs101
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Quoting: aadoyle
In general been talking to Chicago fans they told me McCabe on the right side was a headache and hes better on the left which makes me go alright why we going to get him

So then if thats the case he makes no sense as unless your moving Sandin then whats the point. As even if Sandin brings you a nice wing u lose out on some blue line offense.

Now if they want a LD who can play RD and do good in it Chycrun. He occasionally plays RD with Ghost some of the time and has had good results


i think if you want a physical D you go a la cheap and spend a 3rd on Schenn or similar, doesn't even have to be in the starting lineup but at least you have a physical option if needed. D has been good, I get the want for a physical D in case but don't need to throw all the assets away for it

my dream TDL would be Timo + Schenn/equivalent (7th or 8th D to start but if it gets too physical he comes in for Sandin). maybe depth center as well though I personally don't think its necessary if we keep Kerfoot (Kampf - Holmberg good, then top 6 injury Kerfoot goes in to C two of Marner, Nylander, Meier would be fine)

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Meier - Tavares - Marner
Kerfoot - Kampf - Engvall
Knies/ZAR - Holmberg - Jarnkrok

then

Rielly - Liljegren
Sandin - Brodie
Gio - Holl

(Timmins, Schenn)

OR

Rielly - Liljegren
Brodie - Schenn
Gio - Holl

(Sandin, Timmins)
Feb. 4, 2023 at 1:03 p.m.
#525
LeafsFanForSomeReason
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I'm gonna be pedantic for a second lol: It's Bjugstad, not Bjugstand.

Just been seeing it so much
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