Playing the Villain

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 7:56 a.m.

#2

HuGo is a Boss GM

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Miller is not even worth thinking about. Cancel culture got it right this time. Let's move on!

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 8:04 a.m.

#3

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

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Quoting: jonh514

Deleted

Mitchell Miller
I cant give context without violating the rules
Even my description it was hard to word without stepping over the boundaries.

Basically he was a bully as a kid and said things at that time there's no way he coulda understood the context of the statements as defined.
Not saying it was right , not saying actions dont have consequences it just seems to me we dont convict children for a reason , they're not mature enough to understand the impact of their actions long term.
If we all went to jail for stuff we did in Middle School most of us would be serving time for a variety of offenses.

I better stop with the details though the more it gets political the higher the odds it gets shut down.
I was just creating the post trying to start a discussion about having more reasonable grounded debates in a society that's built in the "You're for or against us" mentality.
I was hoping if we can start small it will formulate into being able to have more mature and larger discussions about bigger topics like this one.

Just about finding away to Show Respect and be humble when you recieve it.
The more of us there are the better society will be.
This forum has a lot of those well balanced and objective types so this seemed like a way to maybe recruit some more .

Mar. 17, 2023 at 8:06 a.m.

#4

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

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Quoting: jonh514

Miller is not even worth thinking about. Cancel culture got it right this time. Let's move on!

I disagree
but i see why you'd say that.
I probably would agree is it wasnt as a child

I dont pass Judgement on Adolescent's , much like Society i hold the Parents accountable with the kids getting a lesser punishment
Why right ? If your society cant rehabilitate a child, well its says all you need to know about its Quality.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 8:11 a.m.

#5

HuGo is a Boss GM

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Edited Mar. 17, 2023 at 8:18 a.m.

Quoting: Billy316

I disagree
but i see why you'd say that.
I probably would agree is it wasnt as a child

I dont pass Judgement on Adolescent's , much like Society i hold the Parents accountable with the kids getting a lesser punishment
Why right ? If your society cant rehabilitate a child, well its says all you need to know about its Quality.

No. He lied to the Bruins about making amends. The day he plays in the NHL, is the day I stop watching because I cannot support any group which has him as a member.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 8:53 a.m.

#6

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

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Quoting: jonh514

No. He lied to the Bruins about making amends. The day he plays in the NHL, is the day I stop watching because I cannot support any group which has him as a member.

He told me he was sorry and [that the apology] didn’t involve hockey,” Meyer-Crothers said in his statement. “He told me he was doing stuff in the community and helping the youth and wanted to be my friend. I told him, ‘That’s all cool but where is the proof though?’ He didn’t give me any [proof].

The Apology was made , he did try to make amends as per the Victim.
The Victim didnt accept it until he saw proof of the changes .
Had Miller not signed before offering this kid proof , i think he would not be so hurt.
His entire interview i read and what he felt like was Miller fell short on going the extra mile.

Whether he accepted it or not they were not hostile towards eachother and were in contact.
Did the agent portray Meyer-Crothers as part of the past and resolved? 100%
Did Miller make that statement , no

Again you are quoting a source likely 4th or 5th hand.
Im quoting the Victim

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:01 a.m.

#7

reelnb

Misses Danault

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The things Miller did are, frankly, inhuman. He does not deserve a pro hockey career. I do not care that he was a teenager at the time, he should have known better.

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:06 a.m.

#8

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

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Quoting: reelnb

The things Miller did are, frankly, inhuman. He does not deserve a pro hockey career. I do not care that he was a teenager at the time, he should have known better.

No a Child Elementary and Middle School is defined as an Adolescent .
So you're actually blurring the context to make it more palatable for you to ignore he was a child then and is making Amends now as Per the Victim himself , he just felt Miller fell short before signing a deal.

saying Adolescent's should know better is something i have to challenge outright.
Most kids in grade 4-6 are eating paste and pulling girls hair on the playground cause they dont understand how to communicate they like them.
The point is we have to teach children to be better.

If you're saying Society couldnt re-educate a child.. well that's scary
Especially when the Victim was more Compassionate

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:16 a.m.

#9

Leafs Sufferer

Joined: Jul. 2019

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Quoting: Billy316

No a Child Elementary and Middle School is defined as an Adolescent .
So you're actually blurring the context to make it more palatable for you to ignore he was a child then and is making Amends now as Per the Victim himself , he just felt Miller fell short before signing a deal.

saying Adolescent's should know better is something i have to challenge outright.
Most kids in grade 4-6 are eating paste and pulling girls hair on the playground cause they dont understand how to communicate they like them.
The point is we have to teach children to be better.

If you're saying Society couldnt re-educate a child.. well that's scary
Especially when the Victim was more Compassionate

Your title is very accurate, you are most certainly playing the villian.

You're going to great lengths to essentially diminish the damage Mitchell did to Isaiah, so that, what, he can sign with MTL at league minimum? So MTL can rehabilitate him?

Awful, this kid does not deserve the chance to "rehabilitate" while playing hockey on the greatest stage. If he wants to spend his time making amends, please do, and I hope one day if he figures his crap out. But he does NOT deserve the opportunity to make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars playing a sport when he caused an insane amount of trauma to a kid who didn't deserve it. He doesn't deserve to be rewarded for his horrible actions.

There's dumb takes on this site, this is near the top.

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:21 a.m.

#10

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

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Quoting: Ritzy

Your title is very accurate, you are most certainly playing the villian.

You're going to great lengths to essentially diminish the damage Mitchell did to Isaiah, so that, what, he can sign with MTL at league minimum? So MTL can rehabilitate him?

Awful, this kid does not deserve the chance to rehabilitate and play hockey on the greatest stage. If he wants to spend his time making amends, please do, and I hope one day if he figures his crap out. But he does NOT deserve the opportunity to make hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars playing a sport when he caused an insane amount of trauma to a kid who didn't deserve it. He doesn't deserve to be rewarded for his horrible actions.

There's dumb takes on this site, this is near the top.

no im quoting the victim isaiah while you project how you'd do things based on 3rd or 4th hand info.
Are you saying Isaiah was wrong to hear him out on his apology ? was wrong to be willing to see Millers atonement at work as proof?
Cause the only part that he claims he was hurt by after Mitchell apologized was Miller's Agents statement saying their ongoing contact was over and this was done .

It wasnt Miller telling him this
It was Isaiah reacting to a Tweet where BOS released a Message that wasnt accurate.
Yes he Apologized , no he did not make amends , he was in the process as per the Victim.

Lynch Mobs do this a lot.
Its why i tried being a thurough as possible but it seems its storytime

To clarify once more.
If we all were judged on what we did in grades 4-6 or in Elementary/Middle School in General.
There isnt a single one of us who wouldnt face problems in today's society.

I grew up Gay and Metis at a time Native's didnt consider us more then Colonised Native's
so i now how horrible people can be and what they will say to you.

I also know that some of those same people who were horrible did so out of ignorance and the older they got the last people yelling derrogatory remarks about the way i dressed or talked or acted. If i condemned them all i'd have maybe 1/3rd at best of my classmates who wouldnt face any backlash.

We were all horrible kids if we judge yestarday by todays standards.
When i was growing up anti gay remarks were so common you'd hear them from everyone whether its Sissy or comments about throwing like a girl to the more serious ones.
Everyone had a bias even those claiming to be allies often didnt see their own.

But patience cultivates change , aggression cultivates corrosion

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:32 a.m.

#11

HuGo is a Boss GM

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Quoting: Billy316

no im quoting the victim isaiah while you project how you'd do things based on 3rd or 4th hand info.
Are you saying Isaiah was wrong to hear him out on his apology ? was wrong to be willing to see Millers atonement at work as proof?
Cause the only part that he claims he was hurt by after Mitchell apologized was Miller's Agents statement saying their ongoing contact was over and this was done .

It wasnt Miller telling him this
It was Isaiah reacting to a Tweet where BOS released a Message that wasnt accurate.
Yes he Apologized , no he did not make amends , he was in the process as per the Victim.

Lynch Mobs do this a lot.
Its why i tried being a thurough as possible but it seems its storytime

To clarify once more.
If we all were judged on what we did in grades 4-6 or in Elementary/Middle School in General.
There isnt a single one of us who wouldnt face problems in today's society.

I grew up Gay and Metis at a time Native's didnt consider us more then Colonised Native's
so i now how horrible people can be and what they will say to you.

I also know that some of those same people who were horrible did so out of ignorance and the older they got the last people yelling derrogatory remarks about the way i dressed or talked or acted. If i condemned them all i'd have maybe 1/3rd at best of my classmates who wouldnt face any backlash.

We were all horrible kids if we judge yestarday by todays standards.
When i was growing up anti gay remarks were so common you'd hear them from everyone whether its Sissy or comments about throwing like a girl to the more serious ones.
Everyone had a bias even those claiming to be allies often didnt see their own.

But patience cultivates change , aggression cultivates corrosion

What was the timing of the apology exactly? 3 days before signing his contract, wasn't it?

The guy put a lollypop in a urinal and tricked a disabled kid into licking it for pleasure. He should be thrown in a gulag, not given a golden ticket.

Professional sports is as much about entertainment as it is about being the best. Mitchell Miller will never be entertaining.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:34 a.m.

#12

Leafs Sufferer

Joined: Jul. 2019

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Quoting: Billy316

no im quoting the victim isaiah while you project how you'd do things based on 3rd or 4th hand info.
Are you saying Isaiah was wrong to hear him out on his apology ? was wrong to be willing to see Millers atonement at work as proof?
Cause the only part that he claims he was hurt by after Mitchell apologized was Miller's Agents statement saying their ongoing contact was over and this was done .

It wasnt Miller telling him this
It was Isaiah reacting to a Tweet where BOS released a Message that wasnt accurate.
Yes he Apologized , no he did not make amends , he was in the process as per the Victim.

Lynch Mobs do this a lot.
Its why i tried being a thurough as possible but it seems its storytime

To clarify once more.
If we all were judged on what we did in grades 4-6 or in Elementary/Middle School in General.
There isnt a single one of us who wouldnt face problems in today's society.

I grew up Gay and Metis at a time Native's didnt consider us more then Colonised Native's
so i now how horrible people can be and what they will say to you.

I also know that some of those same people who were horrible did so out of ignorance and the older they got the last people yelling derrogatory remarks about the way i dressed or talked or acted. If i condemned them all i'd have maybe 1/3rd at best of my classmates who wouldnt face any backlash.

We were all horrible kids if we judge yestarday by todays standards.
When i was growing up anti gay remarks were so common you'd hear them from everyone whether its Sissy or comments about throwing like a girl to the more serious ones.
Everyone had a bias even those claiming to be allies often didnt see their own.

But patience cultivates change , aggression cultivates corrosion

https://twitter.com/TheOfficialHDA/status/1590364034213511169?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1590364034213511169%7Ctwgr%5E761fa507c17d41799c2c0bf3b58712d16f4c5e33%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fsports%2Fhockey%2Fnhl%2Fboston-bruin-mitchell-miller-hda-statement-1.6646793

Since you like quoting the victim, there's one for you.

Describes the horrible acts Mitchell did to him. Sure, he said "sorry", says he's making amends, but can't seem to show how. Quote says she's still receiving hate messages from others now that he has come forward, now that it might affect Mitchell's playing career. How is this okay? Mitchell did this, he's shown others that he can get away with it.

I feel for you that you have gone through what you have, you shouldn't have. Maybe instead of trying to justify why we should be forgiving Mitchell, you should be condemning him for causing someone else trauma when you have experienced similar yourself.

I'm not against Mitchell being rehabilitated, but what is paying him a crap ton of money and playing in the NHL going to teach him? Nothing, absolutely nothing. It teaches him that it doesn't matter what you did growing up, we'll pay you to play a sport. If the league is really trying to push the "hockey is for everyone" narrative they say they are, guys like Mitchell cannot be a part of it. The system, himself, his family, the victim (if he chooses, he does not have to) and the victim's family can agree to make amends another way, but not here. It won't teach him anything.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:37 a.m.

#13

OldNYIfan

Once a Kings Fan Too

Joined: Jun. 2018

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I greatly admire your courage in starting a discussion on a subject so controversial that it makes us uncomfortable and, moreover, taking what is bound to be the unpopular side of it.

My understanding is that all major religions, and most of the minor ones, too, believe in the possibility of redemption. Sometimes, we just have to grit our teeth and do something we don't want to do.

The issue of whether and to what extent adolescence, and the resulting lack of knowledge and experience, mitigates horrible behavior was discussed and debated long before William Golding wrote "Lord of the Flies." It's a discussion which will always be with us.

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:41 a.m.

#14

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

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Quoting: jonh514

What was the timing of the apology exactly? 3 days before signing his contract, wasn't it?

That's one way to look at it , sure
Another way is ARZ released him 5 months before
If that was really his motivation what wait until the season started to contact him ?

I get what you're saying but if the Victim felt that was true he wouldnt have heard him out or been so gracious about it.
His reaction in the interviews is to the fact alone the "amends had been made" as if apolgizing ended it.
The Victim wanted him to use his fame to spread an anti bullying message to save future children his situation.

He wasnt foaming at the mouth mad at his contract.
He was foaming at the mouth mad at BOS statement of half truths.
If they reported the full truth and nothing but we wouldnt be here and Miller would be doing anti bullying campaigns.

Reality is like the Victim knows Mitchell Miller didnt continue this trend.
There's no other incidents , no other victims and no suggestion that this behaviour continued from adoloescence into his teen years .
The Victim would know if it did with no reason to hold back heck he coulda even lied about it to bury him.

But instead he corrected the mistake and challanged Miller to be true to his word .
When your or some oe the others had out your pitchforks
The Victim was still trying to give Miller a way out

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:42 a.m.

#15

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

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Quoting: Ritzy

https://twitter.com/TheOfficialHDA/status/1590364034213511169?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1590364034213511169%7Ctwgr%5E761fa507c17d41799c2c0bf3b58712d16f4c5e33%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fsports%2Fhockey%2Fnhl%2Fboston-bruin-mitchell-miller-hda-statement-1.6646793

Since you like quoting the victim, there's one for you.

Describes the horrible acts Mitchell did to him. Sure, he said "sorry", says he's making amends, but can't seem to show how. Quote says she's still receiving hate messages from others now that he has come forward, now that it might affect Mitchell's playing career. How is this okay? Mitchell did this, he's shown others that he can get away with it.

I feel for you that you have gone through what you have, you shouldn't have. Maybe instead of trying to justify why we should be forgiving Mitchell, you should be condemning him for causing someone else trauma when you have experienced similar yourself.

I'm not against Mitchell being rehabilitated, but what is paying him a crap ton of money and playing in the NHL going to teach him? Nothing, absolutely nothing. It teaches him that it doesn't matter what you did growing up, we'll pay you to play a sport. If the league is really trying to push the "hockey is for everyone" narrative they say they are, guys like Mitchell cannot be a part of it. The system, himself, his family, the victim (if he chooses, he does not have to) and the victim's family can agree to make amends another way, but not here. It won't teach him anything.

Its now ok but you created that cycle of hate not me.
Like you said you read the quote you know they're true but i cant be accountable for your culture of hate as i dont particpate in it.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:45 a.m.

#16

Leafs Sufferer

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Quoting: Billy316

Its now ok but you created that cycle of hate not me.
Like you said you read the quote you know they're true but i cant be accountable for your culture of hate as i dont particpate in it.

What? What cycle of hate have I created? I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:46 a.m.

#17

ricochetii

Go Habs Go

Joined: Mar. 2017

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I agree that this isn't a simple issue. It's an issue for society as a whole.
Intolerance in children is tolerated under the "kids will be kids" mantra and really because nobody wants to deal with it.
It's hard work teaching children to be better than their nature.

It starts with parenting. Unfortunately there's no qualification test to become a parent and with economic pressure raising children is not the primary concern it should be.
It continues through education. School is a large influence in the development of children, but it's underfunded, understaffed, and underpowered.

Cancel culture I somewhat disagree with. There's no opportunity to learn and grow. It's right to point out issues, but there has to be incentive to improve.
There is however, a difference between forgiveness/redemption, and acting like it never happened.

Nobody is saying he can't play hockey and seek redemption, he just can't do it at the highest level right now. It's up to him to convince everyone that he truly has learned and grown.
Apologizing through text and signing the first contract put in front of him (while misleading the team offering), shows he is just going through the motions, not as a child, but as a young adult. He doesn't acknowledge the severity of his actions or show more than a cursory effort to make amends.

This isn't a case of bullying someone occasionally for a couple of years. In the victim's words, this was systematic abuse and degradation throughout a significant period of his childhood.

Incredibly heart-breaking read but a necessary one. Our actions or lack thereof, have real-life consequences. A statement from Isaiah Meyer-Crothers in his own words sent to Akim Aliu, HDA Chair, on November 8, 2022 which he asked the HDA to release publicly on his behalf. pic.twitter.com/dctpDdrXaL
— Hockey Diversity Alliance (@TheOfficialHDA) November 9, 2022

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:48 a.m.

#18

HuGo is a Boss GM

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Quoting: OldNYIfan

I greatly admire your courage in starting a discussion on a subject so controversial that it makes us uncomfortable and, moreover, taking what is bound to be the unpopular side of it.

My understanding is that all major religions, and most of the minor ones, too, believe in the possibility of redemption. Sometimes, we just have to grit our teeth and do something we don't want to do.

The issue of whether and to what extent adolescence, and the resulting lack of knowledge and experience, mitigates horrible behavior was discussed and debated long before William Golding wrote "Lord of the Flies." It's a discussion which will always be with us.

Redemption does not mean you are allowed to win the lottery. Redemption is about the soul. Even if he is perfectly sorry, it is not to the benefit of the overall society to have him in the limelight. Let him go do community service to educate others on what not to do.

One last point: In most societies, convicted felons cannot vote during their incarceration and for some time thereafter. As a society we grant second chances, but we do it in pieces and when earned through lots of effort on the part of the individual. Why are we going to elevate MM when all he did was fake an apology way too late. The damage done to his victims (I assure you there is more than one) will be with them for life.

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Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:49 a.m.

#19

Leafs Sufferer

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Quoting: jonh514

Redemption does not mean you are allowed to win the lottery. Redemption is about the soul. Even if he is perfectly sorry, it is not to the benefit of the overall society to have him in the limelight. Let him go do community service to educate others on what not to do.

One last point: In most societies, convicted felons cannot vote during their incarceration and for some time thereafter. As a society we grant second chances, but we do it in pieces and when earned through lots of effort on the part of the individual. Why are we going to elevate MM when all he did was fake an apology way too late. The damage done to his victims (I assure you there is more than one) will be with them for life.

Bingo.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 9:49 a.m.

#20

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 2,611

Likes: 745

Quoting: OldNYIfan

I greatly admire your courage in starting a discussion on a subject so controversial that it makes us uncomfortable and, moreover, taking what is bound to be the unpopular side of it.

My understanding is that all major religions, and most of the minor ones, too, believe in the possibility of redemption. Sometimes, we just have to grit our teeth and do something we don't want to do.

The issue of whether and to what extent adolescence, and the resulting lack of knowledge and experience, mitigates horrible behavior was discussed and debated long before William Golding wrote "Lord of the Flies." It's a discussion which will always be with us.

Thank you

I just feel that in all this the Victims words were not heard.
They seen any set back as a reason to exile

Rebabiliation is a long road and you will 100% fail or mess up along the way.
Its how we conduct ourselves after we fall that defines us.

If he was a teen doing this i might feel less we'll say dedicated.
But the fact that they're not trying to target people for what happened in grade 4-6 is unreal.
The fact that anyone went back to someone they wronged in grade 4-6 is something no one criticizing him is willing to or has done.
There's no understanding of how unique the situation is and how outside interferance hinders progress.

If the media would have quoted him properly and asked question like News Journalists used to be required to do in search of Answers.
I then feel we're not in the position we are now because Media thrives on Drama in this era not answer ,facts or sources.

In the end there's a lot of people that could be helped by Millier and Meyer-Crothers telling their story in an anti bullying campaign .
But thats not going to get viewers attention sadly

Mar. 17, 2023 at 10:10 a.m.

#21

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 2,611

Likes: 745

Quoting: ricochetii

I agree that this isn't a simple issue. It's an issue for society as a whole.
Intolerance in children is tolerated under the "kids will be kids" mantra and really because nobody wants to deal with it.
It's hard work teaching children to be better than their nature.

It starts with parenting. Unfortunately there's no qualification test to become a parent and with economic pressure raising children is not the primary concern it should be.
It continues through education. School is a large influence in the development of children, but it's underfunded, understaffed, and underpowered.

Cancel culture I somewhat disagree with. There's no opportunity to learn and grow. It's right to point out issues, but there has to be incentive to improve.
There is however, a difference between forgiveness/redemption, and acting like it never happened.

Nobody is saying he can't play hockey and seek redemption, he just can't do it at the highest level right now. It's up to him to convince everyone that he truly has learned and grown.
Apologizing through text and signing the first contract put in front of him (while misleading the team offering), shows he is just going through the motions, not as a child, but as a young adult. He doesn't acknowledge the severity of his actions or show more than a cursory effort to make amends.

This isn't a case of bullying someone occasionally for a couple of years. In the victim's words, this was systematic abuse and degradation throughout a significant period of his childhood.

Incredibly heart-breaking read but a necessary one. Our actions or lack thereof, have real-life consequences. A statement from Isaiah Meyer-Crothers in his own words sent to Akim Aliu, HDA Chair, on November 8, 2022 which he asked the HDA to release publicly on his behalf. pic.twitter.com/dctpDdrXaL
— Hockey Diversity Alliance (@TheOfficialHDA) November 9, 2022

You're right and had he been a Teen i'd be right there with you as far as him being allowed to play Pro Hockey.
But one thing we're overlooking here is it wasnt just Meyer-Crothers Childhood it was both of Their Childhood

While i also must point out this ended as soon as Miller joined Competitive hockey where there is a higher class of Parent and groups that do correct that attitude fast.
The minute he became a Athlete with a more stable support system is exactly when you hear about the last incidents .
So the very thing that helped him become a better person is now after this year taken away from him or atleast his options in North America are.

Did it happen alot in that time period ? Probably.
It wasnt until i hit my first bully with a bat and choked another out with a Skipping rope that the gay kid got any respect from my bullies.
None of mine ever just evolved and stopped targeting me. Hell in 34 years old and Nigel still threatens to kick my ass when he's making my Curly Fires at Arby's.

Just saying atleast this guy made changes that no one can deny
He became a better person and sought out someone he bullied in the past to apologize.
If one person in this post can say that ,i'd be surprised.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 10:11 a.m.

#22

OldNYIfan

Once a Kings Fan Too

Joined: Jun. 2018

Posts: 40,621

Likes: 25,468

First, let me say right off the bat that I'm not contending that we should all accept MM with open arms, or accept his apology uncritically, or that we should diminish or even dismiss the nature or severity of his crimes -- because that's what they were -- nor do I think for a moment that Billy316 is saying any of those things.

Quoting: jonh514

Redemption does not mean you are allowed to win the lottery.

False. Redemption means exactly that.

Quoting: jonh514

Even if he is perfectly sorry, it is not to the benefit of the overall society to have him in the limelight. Let him go do community service to educate others on what not to do.

You are reinforcing Billy's primary point here, which is that "In the end, there's a lot of people that could be helped by Miller and Meyers-Crowther telling their story in an anti-bullying campaign."

Quoting: jonh514

One last point: In most societies, convicted felons cannot vote during their incarceration and for some time thereafter.

True, pretty much. Also unequivocally true: in most civilized societies, those rights (not just voting rights, mind you) are eventually restored.

Quoting: jonh514

As a society we grant second chances, but we do it in pieces and when earned through lots of effort on the part of the individual. Why are we going to elevate MM when all he did was fake an apology way too late. The damage done to his victims (I assure you there is more than one) will be with them for life.

If you believe his apology was faked, you are absolutely entitled not to accept it. I express no opinion one way or the other. Your third sentence is indisputable. Your first sentence is, I firmly believe, the principle on which every single one of us can, and does, agree.

Just as I previously expressed my admiration for Billy in raising this subject, I express my admiration for you (and my friends @Ritzy and @ricochetii) having presented a different opinion in good faith, with intellectual integrity, and without invective or other hateful language.

Billy316, Ritzy and jonh514 liked this.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 10:15 a.m.

#23

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 2,611

Likes: 745

Quoting: jonh514

Redemption does not mean you are allowed to win the lottery. Redemption is about the soul. Even if he is perfectly sorry, it is not to the benefit of the overall society to have him in the limelight. Let him go do community service to educate others on what not to do.

One last point: In most societies, convicted felons cannot vote during their incarceration and for some time thereafter. As a society we grant second chances, but we do it in pieces and when earned through lots of effort on the part of the individual. Why are we going to elevate MM when all he did was fake an apology way too late. The damage done to his victims (I assure you there is more than one) will be with them for life.

You just compared a Adolescent to a Felon , an Adolescent who once joining Competitive Hockey never had another issue at all on any level.
He corrected himself and moved on with not a single thing even suggesting otherwise, no rumor or even lie made up to say that he continued.
Everyone awknowledges it stopped and both kids grew up.

Kid made and apology long after changing his life

Mar. 17, 2023 at 10:23 a.m.

#24

Thread Starter

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 2,611

Likes: 745

Quoting: OldNYIfan

First, let me say right off the bat that I'm not contending that we should all accept MM with open arms, or accept his apology uncritically, or that we should diminish or even dismiss the nature or severity of his crimes -- because that's what they were -- nor do I think for a moment that Billy316 is saying any of those things.

False. Redemption means exactly that.

You are reinforcing Billy's primary point here, which is that "In the end, there's a lot of people that could be helped by Miller and Meyers-Crowther telling their story in an anti-bullying campaign."

True, pretty much. Also unequivocally true: in most civilized societies, those rights (not just voting rights, mind you) are eventually restored.

If you believe his apology was faked, you are absolutely entitled not to accept it. I express no opinion one way or the other. Your third sentence is indisputable. Your first sentence is, I firmly believe, the principle on which every single one of us can, and does, agree.

Just as I previously expressed my admiration for Billy in raising this subject, I express my admiration for you (and my friends Ritzy and ricochetii) having presented a different opinion in good faith, with intellectual integrity, and without invective or other hateful language.

See this comment right here , more of this was my hope when starting the post.
Democratic Debate with Mutual Respect.

I know im not perfect i have my days and ill atone for them.
I've gone off the rails too on posts and had to awknowledge that.
But i believe above all else i try to see things from a balanced perspective with consideration to facts and the context in which they are founded.

I mean if you can prove me wrong , ill concede to your point and evolve by adopting it.
Shouldnt this be the goal of all societies and what they strive for ?
I mean without Redemption what hope does our society really have? or our species for that matter.

In the end i just hope 1 person walks away from the post considering the situation as a whole not just automatically perpetuating a cycle of hate.
It just may have been a failed effort but it was 100% worth the try.

Mar. 17, 2023 at 10:27 a.m.

#25