If Dubois is an 80 point player why doesnt he score 80 points

RFA	YEARS	CAP HIT
Dubois, Pierre-Luc	8	$7,500,000

ROSTER SIZE	SALARY CAP	CAP HIT	OVERAGES	BONUSES	CAP SPACE
20	$83,500,000	$70,724,166	$1,170,000	$4,195,000	$12,775,834

Left Wing	Centre	Right Wing
	Suzuki, Nick $7,875,000$7,875,000 C UFA - 7	Gallagher, Brendan $6,500,000$6,500,000 RW, LW M-NTC, NMC UFA - 4
Pitlick, Rem $1,100,000$1,100,000 LW, RW UFA - 1	Dubois, Pierre-Luc $7,500,000$7,500,000 C UFA - 8	Anderson, Josh $5,500,000$5,500,000 RW, LW M-NTC UFA - 4
Pezzetta, Michael $812,500$812,500 LW, RW UFA - 2	Dach, Kirby $3,362,500$3,362,500 C, RW RFA - 3	Armia, Joel $3,400,000$3,400,000 RW, LW UFA - 2
	Evans, Jake $1,700,000$1,700,000 C UFA - 2
	Dvorak, Christian $4,450,000$4,450,000 C M-NTC UFA - 2

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
Matheson, Michael $4,875,000$4,875,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 3	Savard, David $3,500,000$3,500,000 RD UFA - 2	Allen, Jake $1,925,000$1,925,000 G M-NTC UFA - 2
Edmundson, Joel $875,000$875,000 LD/RD M-NTC UFA - 1	Barron, Justin $925,000$925,000 ($275,000$275K) RD RFA - 1	Montembeault, Samuel $1,000,000$1,000,000 G UFA - 1
Harris, Jordan $1,400,000$1,400,000 LD/RD RFA - 2	Kovacevic, Johnathan $766,667$766,667 RD UFA - 2
Guhle, Kaiden $863,333$863,333 ($420,000$420K) LD/RD RFA - 2	Wideman, Chris $762,500$762,500 RD UFA - 1

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:43 a.m.

#1

Dan_the_Man

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You're absolutely correct Winnipeg doesn't remotely consider it.

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:44 a.m.

#2

justaBoss

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You know, offering 7,5 mil for Dubois because he hasn't scored 80 points yet would be pretty hypocritical by Habs front office, considering they offered Caufield almost $8M, and his one season point record is 43.

Granted he's been riddled by injuries, but PLD's point per game ratio was better than Caufield's best one has been just last year. And he's a center.

Just based on where the market is going, he has all reasons to request for a salary between 8-9 mil for next year. That's where the trend has been set.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:45 a.m.

#3

jonh514

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Quoting: Dan_the_Man

You're absolutely correct Winnipeg doesn't remotely consider it.

Do you think LA or NYR remotely consider giving a 63 point player an 8 x 9M deal?

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:45 a.m.

#4

Dan_the_Man

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Quoting: jonh514

Do you think LA or NYR remotely consider giving a 63 point player an 8 x 9M deal?

Not if they have brains

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:46 a.m.

#5

jonh514

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Quoting: justaBoss

You know, offering 7,5 mil for Dubois because he hasn't scored 80 points yet would be pretty hypocritical by Habs front office, considering they offered Caufield almost $8M, and his one season point record is 43.

Granted he's been riddled by injuries, but PLD's point per game ratio was better than Caufield's best one has been just last year. And he's a center.

Just based on where the market is going, he has all reasons to request for a salary between 8-9 mil for next year. That's where the trend has been set.

Caufield is 22, Dubois is 25. If Dubois was 22 it would be different.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:46 a.m.

#6

Steven_Stamkos

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I agree. He could have another gear, he just hasn't found it yet. He has plenty of value, but currently he hasn't been able to become what so many people think he is. He's a power forward center. There's no sense in trying to make him something he's not, when he is great at being what he is. 60 points is good production. 30 goals is even better. I would not pay him anything above 8. Personally if he want's 7/8 years, somewhere between 6.75 and 7.75 is where he should land.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:46 a.m.

#7

jonh514

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Quoting: Dan_the_Man

Not if they have brains

So what team is going to make a better offer than the one I made?

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:47 a.m.

#8

justaBoss

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Quoting: jonh514

Caufield is 22, Dubois is 25. If Dubois was 22 it would be different.

And Dubois is also through a bridge deal of his. Next time he'll be making bigger bucks.

Arguably, Caufield's performance short term has been worth less than what Dubois has been making now. Caufield's $8M deal is obviously banking for future.

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:48 a.m.

#9

KentMcNally

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Some Jets fans will argue that (1) Dubois is worth the equivalent of 3 first round picks in a package (which he is not, for the reasons you have stated above) and (2) a contending team on PLD's wish list will offer Winnipeg significantly more for PLD. A potential flaw with that argument is that contending teams that PLD may be willing to go to do not have a lot of cap space to add $7.5M to $9M to their roster and any picks that they will offer will be in the mid to late 20s of upcoming drafts (so not much better than the Florida pick).

I think Montreal has to offer a little bit more than you are offering, but not much. I think that mot contending teams won't be able to (or probably won't want to) offer Winnipeg the sun and the moon for a good player who is not a great player.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:50 a.m.

#10

jonh514

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Quoting: justaBoss

And Dubois is also through a bridge deal of his. Next time he'll be making bigger bucks.

Arguably, Caufield's performance short term has been worth less than what Dubois has been making now. Caufield's $8M deal is obviously banking for future.

Caufield is by no means a good comparable for PLD and I think it's sad that on a thread talking about PLD's value, you are obsessed with trying to tear Caufield down.

Caufield has projectable upside and PLD doesn't really anymore, which is the entire point of this post.

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:51 a.m.

#11

jonh514

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Quoting: Steven_Stamkos

I agree. He could have another gear, he just hasn't found it yet. He has plenty of value, but currently he hasn't been able to become what so many people think he is. He's a power forward center. There's no sense in trying to make him something he's not, when he is great at being what he is. 60 points is good production. 30 goals is even better. I would not pay him anything above 8. Personally if he want's 7/8 years, somewhere between 6.75 and 7.75 is where he should land.

Knowing the ask is 9M, I wonder how many offers the Jets will get.

Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:52 a.m.

#12

justaBoss

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Quoting: jonh514

Caufield is by no means a good comparable for PLD and I think it's sad that on a thread talking about PLD's value, you are obsessed with trying to tear Caufield down.

Caufield has projectable upside and PLD doesn't really anymore, which is the entire point of this post.

I'm not trying to tear Caufield down. I'm pointing out a certain hypocrisy in this post. Whatever expectations you have towards the two are of no concern to me, as should PLD become a Hab, they both would be classified as Top-6 / first line players. The concept of offering bigger salary to a younger and arguably worse player is just illogical to me.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:53 a.m.

#13

Dan_the_Man

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Edited Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:02 a.m.

Quoting: jonh514

So what team is going to make a better offer than the one I made?

You sent a big cap dump a 1 & prospect probably a couple. The first to dump Hoffman Ridley get you Primadona luc Dubois.?

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:53 a.m.

#14

jonh514

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Quoting: KentMcNally

Some Jets fans will argue that (1) Dubois is worth the equivalent of 3 first round picks in a package (which he is not, for the reasons you have stated above) and (2) a contending team on PLD's wish list will offer Winnipeg significantly more for PLD. A potential flaw with that argument is that contending teams that PLD may be willing to go to do not have a lot of cap space to add $7.5M to $9M to their roster and any picks that they will offer will be in the mid to late 20s of upcoming drafts (so not much better than the Florida pick).

I think Montreal has to offer a little bit more than you are offering, but not much. I think that mot contending teams won't be able to (or probably won't want to) offer Winnipeg the sun and the moon for a good player who is not a great player.

I understand... I always say that if my deals are 80% of the way there, then the rest is just a long discussion.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 8:55 a.m.

#15

jonh514

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Quoting: Dan_the_Man

You sent a big cap dump a 1 & prospect probably a couple. The first to dump Hoffman Ridley get you Primadona luc Dubois.

Several WPG fans have shown an interest in Hoffman. I don't really care about adding him to the deal. I am just as happy buying him out if he's a bit negative.

Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:00 a.m.

#16

Steven_Stamkos

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Quoting: jonh514

Knowing the ask is 9M, I wonder how many offers the Jets will get.

Given the state of rosters throughout the league, I wouldnt think many. Definitely wouldnt think more than 5 teams at most. @KentMcNally said it. Most teams who are contending don't have the cap space. To make cap space they would have to move an essential piece of their core, which a lot of teams wouldn't be willing to do. There aren't many contending teams who are in the position to drastically shake up their lineup, they will just be making minor tweaks. As @justaBoss said, the market has been set the last couple seasons. Even if he shouldn't be valued highly (8.5-9+) doesn't mean he won't get paid that unfortunately. Cause I just don't think he's worth that much money. Seems like he'll end up in Montreal, or on a fringe team who is in/out of the playoffs, or hasn't been considered a contender quite yet because of all the juggernauts.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:04 a.m.

#17

jonh514

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Quoting: justaBoss

I'm not trying to tear Caufield down. I'm pointing out a certain hypocrisy in this post. Whatever expectations you have towards the two are of no concern to me, as should PLD become a Hab, they both would be classified as Top-6 / first line players. The concept of offering bigger salary to a younger and arguably worse player is just illogical to me.

I DO think PLD is less good than Caufield. You are making a really biased assumption that the max points earned by a player at age 21-22 is equivalent to the max points earned by a player at age 24-25.

Your argument is flawed sir, and I don't need to pull data on players who peaked in their 22, 23, or 24 year old seasons to prove it.

Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:07 a.m.

#18

jonh514

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Quoting: Steven_Stamkos

Given the state of rosters throughout the league, I wouldnt think many. Definitely wouldnt think more than 5 teams at most. KentMcNally said it. Most teams who are contending don't have the cap space. To make cap space they would have to move an essential piece of their core, which a lot of teams wouldn't be willing to do. There aren't many contending teams who are in the position to drastically shake up their lineup, they will just be making minor tweaks. As justaBoss said, the market has been set the last couple seasons. Even if he shouldn't be valued highly (8.5-9+) doesn't mean he won't get paid that unfortunately. Cause I just don't think he's worth that much money. Seems like he'll end up in Montreal, or on a fringe team who is in/out of the playoffs, or hasn't been considered a contender quite yet because of all the juggernauts.

We may see a bit of a Chychrun situation is all I'm saying, where the asking price scares teams off

Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:10 a.m.

#19

KentMcNally

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Quoting: Steven_Stamkos

Given the state of rosters throughout the league, I wouldnt think many. Definitely wouldnt think more than 5 teams at most. KentMcNally said it. Most teams who are contending don't have the cap space. To make cap space they would have to move an essential piece of their core, which a lot of teams wouldn't be willing to do. There aren't many contending teams who are in the position to drastically shake up their lineup, they will just be making minor tweaks. As justaBoss said, the market has been set the last couple seasons. Even if he shouldn't be valued highly (8.5-9+) doesn't mean he won't get paid that unfortunately. Cause I just don't think he's worth that much money. Seems like he'll end up in Montreal, or on a fringe team who is in/out of the playoffs, or hasn't been considered a contender quite yet because of all the juggernauts.

Yes. And the question becomes who is on PLD's list of teams aside from Montreal? New York Rangers? LA Kings? Vegas? Colorado? Dallas? These are all teams who have little cap space for the long term and whose draft picks will be in the later parts of the first rounds for years to come. Winnipeg will have to grapple with that.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:10 a.m.

#20

SydBarrett

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If he is so terrible why is every habs fan on this site drooling to add him???
If he is so bad but has somehow had better years than CC why aren't you guys losing your minds over the contract CC was just handed?
And in what way can you trade a pile of garbage for a potential 1st line center lmao?

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:12 a.m.

#21

jonh514

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Quoting: KentMcNally

Yes. And the question becomes who is on PLD's list of teams aside from Montreal? New York Rangers? LA Kings? Vegas? Colorado? Dallas? These are all teams who have little cap space for the long term and whose draft picks will be in the later parts of the first rounds for years to come. Winnipeg will have to grapple with that.

I agree. If he wants the money, he will have to offer a weaker list of teams similar in standing to Montreal, maybe ahead of them in a rebuild like Detroit of Buffalo.

Buffalo makes a ton of sense in my mind, though he may not want to play there!

Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:14 a.m.

#22

jonh514

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Quoting: pensburgh571

If he is so terrible why is every habs fan on this site drooling to add him???
If he is so bad but has somehow had better years than CC why aren't you guys losing your minds over the contract CC was just handed?
And in what way can you trade a pile of garbage for a potential 1st line center lmao?

Calm down. No one here, including me, said he was "so terrible". We all said, he's worth 6.75-7.75M as a 60 point player, especially on an 8 year deal.

No one has said they don't want him, just that, none of us want him "at any price".

Edit: There is also no one on this thread who thinks of him as a top line center.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:16 a.m.

#23

HabsFan61

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We should not trade for him and I don’t even want him as a UFA. He isn’t worth 9 million a year.

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:16 a.m.

#24

SydBarrett

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Quoting: jonh514

Calm down. No one here, including me, said he was "so terrible". We all said, he's worth 6.75-7.75M as a 60 point player, especially on an 8 year deal.

No one has said they don't want him, just that, none of us want him "at any price".

Edit: There is also no one on this thread who thinks of him as a top line center.

But how can you declare he is only a 60 point player when he is still only 25?
Is CC only a 43 point player? Keep in mind that PLD is only 3 years older than CC. So the age difference argument is pretty moot. Especially considering how much harder it is to be a productive center vs a winger. That is why centers have always gotten more money

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Jun. 10, 2023 at 9:17 a.m.

#25

jonh514

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Quoting: HabsFan61

We should not trade for him and I don’t even want him as a UFA. He isn’t worth 9 million a year.

Would you take him at 7.5M?

Draft	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6	Round 7
2023
2024
2025

Scratches	Injured Reserve (IR)	Long Term IR (LTIR)
	Caufield, Cole $7,850,000$7,850,000 LW, RW UFA - 8	Price, Carey $10,500,000$10,500,000 G NMC UFA - 3
	Slafkovsky, Juraj $950,000$950,000 ($3,500,000$4M) RW, LW RFA - 2
	Xhekaj, Arber $828,333$828,333 LD/RD RFA - 1

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