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Forums/Armchair-GM

Has Fitzy opened up a Can of Worms on Sign-and-Trades

Created by: NHLfan10506
Team: 2023-24 New Jersey Devils
Initial Creation Date: Jun. 14, 2023
Published: Jun. 14, 2023
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
Description
Note -- these are not trade recommendations

Just thinking through what comes next should sign-and-trades become the norm. What do you think?
Free Agent Signings
RFAYEARSCAP HIT
8$8,101,996
8$7,875,000
1$2,050,000
4$1,750,000
3$1,250,000
2$1,100,000
1$900,000
1$775,000
1$775,000
UFAYEARSCAP HIT
6$5,000,000
6$5,000,000
1$2,000,000
1$6,000,000
1$6,000,000
CREATEDYEARSCAP HIT
Severson, Damon
8$6,250,000
Trades
1.
NJD
    1. 2023 3rd round pick (CGY)
    CBJ
    1. Severson, Damon
    Additional Details:
    1. Max-Term Sign-and-Trade

    The Severson sign-and-trade was the first ever of its kind. There had been a few RFA sign-and-trade deals done, notably Tkachuk last year. But never with UFA. This type of S&A deal makes sense since the signing-and-trading team has the benefit of adding the 8th year as the player was a member of your teams roster.
    2.
    NJD
      1. Pick
      CBJ
      1. Graves, Ryan
      Additional Details:
      2. Under-Max-Term Sign-and-Trade

      The max-term scenario seems plausible if a player wants eight years and has expiring deal with team unable or unwilling to sign him. But will we see less-than-8 year contracts deal in sign-and-trade deals?
      3.
      NJD
        1. Reilly, Mike
        2. Orlov, Dmitry (rights)
        BOS
          3. Trade-Sign-And-Trade

          Or what about more speculative deals where a players’ rights have been acquired before a sign-and-trade? Seems outlandish, but gotta imagine some GM will try someday.
          4.
          NJD
            Pick
            WSH
            1. Orlov, Dmitry
            Additional Details:
            ….If we get into 6-7 year terms involved in sign-and-trade deals, one could envision this type of third-team-sign-and-trade. There would have to be incentive on whoever is selling the rights. While far-fetched…I wouldn’t be shocked to see someone try.
            5.
            NJD
            BOS
            1. Wood, Miles ($1,000,000 retained)
            Additional Details:
            4. Sign-Retain-and-Trade

            Another scenario would have a team signing their own player, retaining their contract, and then trading them. It would likely be allowed by the league if it were a teams own player. Not likely to see any 8-year sign-retain-and-trade situations. But maybe for players looking for a one-year deal? (And what better time to go for one-year deals than the summer before cap ceiling jumps)
            6.
            NJD
              1. Killorn, Alex (rights)
              TBL
              1. 2025 7th round pick (NJD)
              Additional Details:
              5. Trade-Sign-Retain-and-Trade

              Or what about a more sinister approach where a team attempts a trade-sign-retain-and-trade…with the same team? …..
              7.
              NJD
                Pick
                TBL
                1. Killorn, Alex ($3,000,000 retained)
                Additional Details:
                ….would almost certainly be viewed as cap circumvention by the league.
                8.
                NJD
                  Pick
                  NYI
                  1. Tarasenko, Vladimir ($3,000,000 retained)
                  Additional Details:
                  6. Sign-Retain-and-Trade After July 1st

                  But what if a sign-retain-and-trade is done with a player that was not on your roster, but the player was signed after July 1st? What would stop a free agent from working with a rebuilding franchise to execute such a deal? Would it be seen as circumvention? I feel like I could argue either way.
                  Buyouts
                  Retained Salary Transactions
                  Recapture Fees
                  DraftRound 1Round 2Round 3Round 4Round 5Round 6Round 7
                  2023
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the CGY
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  2024
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the COL
                  Logo of the NJD
                  2025
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  Logo of the NJD
                  ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES TooltipBONUSESCAP SPACE
                  22$83,500,000$81,627,829$422,500$2,290,000$1,872,171
                  Left WingCentreRight Wing
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $8,101,996$8,101,996
                  LW, RW
                  UFA - 8
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $7,250,000$7,250,000
                  C
                  UFA - 4
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $7,875,000$7,875,000
                  RW, LW
                  UFA - 8
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $894,167$894,167 (Performance Bonus$850,000$850K)
                  RW, LW
                  RFA - 2
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $8,000,000$8,000,000
                  C
                  UFA - 7
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $894,167$894,167 (Performance Bonus$400,000$400K)
                  RW, C
                  RFA - 1
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $2,050,000$2,050,000
                  C, LW, RW
                  UFA - 2
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $900,000$900,000
                  C, LW
                  RFA - 1
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $6,000,000$6,000,000
                  LW, RW
                  NMC
                  UFA - 4
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $863,333$863,333
                  LW
                  RFA - 1
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $1,750,000$1,750,000
                  C
                  RFA - 1
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $1,100,000$1,100,000
                  RW
                  UFA - 2
                  Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $3,400,000$3,400,000
                  LD
                  UFA - 5
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $9,000,000$9,000,000
                  RD
                  NMC
                  UFA - 5
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $3,400,000$3,400,000
                  G
                  UFA - 2
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $1,250,000$1,250,000
                  LD
                  RFA - 2
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $4,400,000$4,400,000
                  RD
                  UFA - 4
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $850,833$850,833 (Performance Bonus$57,500$58K)
                  G
                  RFA - 1
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $925,000$925,000 (Performance Bonus$925,000$925K)
                  LD/RD
                  RFA - 2
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $775,000$775,000
                  RD
                  UFA - 1
                  ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $1,100,000$1,100,000
                  LD/RD, LW
                  UFA - 1
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $850,833$850,833 (Performance Bonus$57,500$58K)
                  RW, C
                  RFA - 1
                  Taxi Squad
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $918,333$918,333 ($0$0$0$0) (Performance Bonus$3,250,000$3M)
                  RD
                  RFA - 3
                  Logo of the New Jersey Devils
                  $836,667$836,667 ($0$0$0$0) (Performance Bonus$82,500$82K)
                  LD
                  RFA - 3

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                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:26 p.m.
                  #1
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                  Probably not.

                  CBJ just really liked Severson. They paid a 3rd to avoid competing at FA but also so they could go into the draft with a clear picture of priorities. It's a pretty specific case and I think many teams won't be looking to change their teams as much as CBJ will be at this specific draft.
                  Tintin liked this.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:32 p.m.
                  #2
                  alwaysnextyear
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                  As you mentioned, the 8 year term is the key variable for a sign-and-trade. That’s why NJD got a 3rd. If the acquiring team has no intention of offering 8 years then it just makes more sense to send a lesser pick for the player’s UFA rights and start negotiating directly with the player.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:39 p.m.
                  #3
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                  Quoting: alwaysnextyear
                  As you mentioned, the 8 year term is the key variable for a sign-and-trade. That’s why NJD got a 3rd. If the acquiring team has no intention of offering 8 years then it just makes more sense to send a lesser pick for the player’s UFA rights and start negotiating directly with the player.


                  Yeah, I’d agree with that. It will likely be contained to 8-year deals and late pick Hayes/Edmundson type rights exchanges. But I could see an innovative GM attempt #4 (Miles Wood example)…especially this year since we may see more players opt for 1-year since cap will jump.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:41 p.m.
                  #4
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                  I've thought about the sign, retain and trade before. Made one with Evander Kane to the Oilers last year. I think max term would likely be 2 years as teams can change priorities pretty quickly. Would be great for a player that wants to sign with a team that is right against the cap but doesn't want to take a big discount. An example could be say Dubois wanted to go to Minnesota but they have very minimal cap space this year but next year they have multiple contracts coming off the books. They could make a deal where Winnipeg signs him for a 1 year 7M contract and then trades him to Minnesota at 3.5M for what would be a normal package plus a bit more for the retention. Since Dubois would be on an expiring contract he should be eligible for an extension immediately and they could then sign him for 8 x 8M afterwards or so. They would have the benefit of multiple contracts coming off the books plus cap expecting to go up. Also they get him signed for 9 years, if that's what the team wants and I'm sure the player would take 9 years over 7 or 8.

                  Also I've been thinking about making a team with this exact trade scenario lol
                  NHLfan10506 liked this.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:41 p.m.
                  #5
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                  The only real benefit to the sign and trade is that it lets teams have the 8th year as leverage in contract talks. For the bruins guys, I doubt anyone want to give 8 years to Orlov or Bertuzzi. Or they'd be very dumb to imo.
                  palhal liked this.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:42 p.m.
                  #6
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                  Quoting: pocke
                  Probably not.

                  CBJ just really liked Severson. They paid a 3rd to avoid competing at FA but also so they could go into the draft with a clear picture of priorities. It's a pretty specific case and I think many teams won't be looking to change their teams as much as CBJ will be at this specific draft.


                  Apparently, Fitzgerald had several offers for Severson’s rights. I don’t think anyone else negotiated a contract with him though. It may also be a reflection of thin UFA market…but clearly other teams were thinking the same thing.
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                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:48 p.m.
                  #7
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                  Quoting: dugg133
                  The only real benefit to the sign and trade is that it lets teams have the 8th year as leverage in contract talks. For the bruins guys, I doubt anyone want to give 8 years to Orlov or Bertuzzi. Or they'd be very dumb to imo.


                  The scenario that includes the Bruins above would essentially be this: Washington calls Boston and asks them not to let Orlov get to market…and offers Bruins a pick for Orlov rights. Boston counters by asking Caps to take a contract instead of sending a pick. To compromise, they find third team to take the Bruins unwanted contract and the Capitals pick.

                  I wasn’t suggesting it will happen or could happen…but it serves as my example there.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 1:49 p.m.
                  #8
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                  Quoting: Lancebmx
                  I've thought about the sign, retain and trade before. Made one with Evander Kane to the Oilers last year. I think max term would likely be 2 years as teams can change priorities pretty quickly. Would be great for a player that wants to sign with a team that is right against the cap but doesn't want to take a big discount. An example could be say Dubois wanted to go to Minnesota but they have very minimal cap space this year but next year they have multiple contracts coming off the books. They could make a deal where Winnipeg signs him for a 1 year 7M contract and then trades him to Minnesota at 3.5M for what would be a normal package plus a bit more for the retention. Since Dubois would be on an expiring contract he should be eligible for an extension immediately and they could then sign him for 8 x 8M afterwards or so. They would have the benefit of multiple contracts coming off the books plus cap expecting to go up. Also they get him signed for 9 years, if that's what the team wants and I'm sure the player would take 9 years over 7 or 8.

                  Also I've been thinking about making a team with this exact trade scenario lol


                  A little different in that he is an RFA. It would be a little like if he signs QO, then retaining a portion before trading him (the “Qualify-Retain-and-Trade”).
                  Lancebmx liked this.
                  Jun. 14, 2023 at 2:06 p.m.
                  #9
                  LongtimeLeafsufferer
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                  Just because CBJ was suckered into giving Severson an eight year deal (my opinion) doesn't; mean you can find other teams willing.
                   
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