Quoting: JSEB93
I already proved your "hide him in the ozone" point incorrect - so move along. None of the Pens defenseman are sheltered in the ozone though.
You can't just say they don't work lol. It would work if they had a 2nd competent LHD for the 2nd pair. Clearly they don't need to keep both out of the dzone. Yeah and so does Graves.
Huh? What are you even bringing up the PK for? Makes no sense. Plus Crosby hasn't even touched the PK in like 6 years. So no - clearly they aren't putting him out there.
My apologies it was set to all situations. At 5v5 dzone starts it's Graves 12.7%, Letang 11.3%, and EK 10.7%. So basically no difference. Certainly not a big enough one to help your argument or point.
I didn't do anything. Yes - he was bad last year. That's just an accurate statement. It's a fair thing to point out. You have no idea if he was ever going to recover. And you also don't know how bad he would have been here if he had to take on more responsibility - we didn't need a 3LD, which is what he is now. We needed a 2LD. I will rip a guy for playing bad if he's playing bad. This is professional sports man. You can't just let people linger year after year in hopes they recover after the age of 30. Dude they simply pointed out he played bad lol - there's nothing wrong with that. I did give him credit - for being a fine 3rd pairing defenseman. Loyalty? What do you think he is, my brother? I can't acknowledge when any player is playing bad - but you're allowed to? Makes no sense.
Yes - I genuinely wonder why you stick up for Graves. And I'm still wondering - because you have yet to explain or prove it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out when a player is bad. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.
Kind of some one side ism here. a 2% difference in zone starts is pretty big. You know MP's is probably lower too as he's linked to Ek in the Ozone starts. The 3rd pairing, LD is constantly hidden with Letang in the Ozone as well aka POJ. So what we see here is Graves is clearly the Defense man getting the Dzone Starts. It's clear who they depend on.
As I said, this number changed during the year. When they realized the defense was awful and could not be trusted. Graves got shifted to the Dzone starts to stop the bleeding of the goals.
Prior to that, they tried the top 4 pairings, letting them play Ozone, EK-MP and Graves-Letang. But the 3rd pair could not be trusted for crap. Which is how this whole "demoted" bs started.
They hid the 3LD with Letang in the Ozone as much as possible because Letang can control the puck, and the more they were in the Ozone the less damage could be done. They played Graves as much as they could in the Dzone. Which is why his minutes didn't go down, but was paired with a 3RD occasionally (go look at the minutes he's always 3rd or 4th never played 3rd pairing minutes). because who else could play there.
It wasn't going to be EK, as you can see above, they don't want him in the Dzone we both know why stop tryng to pretend he's a better defender than Graves, that has been a laughable argument from you.
The only other person was Letang. So it would be Graves and who ever was able to shift between the 3RD and Letang. It could not always be Letang because he might have just got out his shift.
Somehow this gets twisted in PIT fan base to "demotion"
So lets stop the "not big enough to help the point" it shows exactly what is happening on the ice. Which is what I'm trying to tell you from the start. Graves was the 1 guy all year who could play his own zone.
Not that MP couldn't play his zone, but he was stuck with EK which prevented him from really helping there.
They can't trust the AHL level 3rd pairing.
MP followed EK in the Ozone as much as possible because EK needs a competent partner as he's a defense liability. Clearly you know that is true.
So Letang got dragged down, usually with POJ, sometimes Ludvvig.
And Graves got stuck with Chad or Ivvany or Shea.
You want to constantly blame this guy for a "bad year." Yet his goal per 60 is the lowest, and he was used the most to defend his goal and keep the puck out. With a legit AHL level partner for a lot of that time.
The numbers tell the story, you just don't want to see them.
For the record, there is a difference between playing bad and playing injured. To say something like "no idea if he was ever giong to recover....is really a sad excuse. He was thrown under the bus here by a fan base. That's what happened. It's pretty bad that they did Dumo dirty like that.
I have no problem point out a player is "bad". I point it out all the time. But at least I get it right and don't just throw them under buses because that's what the crowd did.
Graves has done what was asked the best he could as an average 2LD. He did it fairly well. He stopped the goals going in. The oiGA/60 and oiGA shows that. His deployment shows that.
You don't want to recognize what the numbers show and just say he's "bad" but at no point are you showing me any statistical evidence as to it. Only asking people "prove he's good".
Where is the proof he's "bad". he gets almost 60% starts in Dzone and yet had an almost 50-50 corsi-fw. He's a net + player, His oiGA are lowest on the team. He's depolyed use is mainly defensive so his offensive number aren't going to be high.
So I'm waiting for this proof on how he's bad. Because all the numbers show at the very least an average 2LD which is what they paid for.