Don't ever accuse me of using basis when evaluating players. I constantly reinforce that I don't, yet you seem to always like to point that out. Jake Voracek's ability to drive plays, combined with his scoring ability, make him a very good player. Top players are McNut, Crosby, Kane, etc.

And Voracek is in a category with McDavid and Kane? And if I want to accuse you of bias, I will. I don't see how you can call Voracek a top player without bias. And we all have it, because we all invest ourselves into a team and obviously know those players, so there's going to be bias. Unless you watch all 30 teams equally, you can't say there's no bias

they were a big part of it but they also had Larsson, Talbot, etc.

please stop making jokes about me thinking Hamonic is a good player. Most people think he's not that good because of one year where he didn't play his best. I never said he's a superstar, i just think if he's your best D that's fine.

Voracek isn't in the "elite" category. You have the fallacy that since one is rife with knowledge of a certain team, they automatically have bias whenever they talk about it. My knowledge of that Jake can drive plays, makes him a very good player. I never even mentioned that he was in the same category as McDavid and Kane.

edit : my knowledge shouldn't be held against me when debating player evaluations

yeah, he's good but not a superstar.

Compare him to OEL and Hamonic is definitely not even close to a #1

Oh dangit, did I miss the movie?

That's fine. I think there have been a million sequels to this movie, and there's still another million to come

well he's definitely not as good as OEL but not very many d-men are as good as OEL.

I can think of 10-15

which isn't that many. who are the 10-15 d-men?

Guys, a year ago a lot of people thought Hamonic was a #1 guy ... he had one year where he didn't play his best and now everyone thinks he's bad. I guess Vatanen isn't a top pairing D then?

Karlsson/Headman/Burns/Doughty/Josi/Subban/Weber/Ekholm/Giordano

Very Close - Jones/Lindholm/Klefbom etc

wait, so Klefbom is close and Ekholm is better but you don't have Keith and McDonagh on your list?

Keith isn't as good as perceived, and McDonagh is part of the "etc"

Keith is no that good anymore and McDougles would be a #2 on most teams

This is actually false, per Micah Blake McCurdy via IneffectiveMath on Twitter :

For people curious about Hamonic, his slump isn't just this past year. Been weak-ish in shots and goals for years. pic.twitter.com/uZOjFivtvN

— Micah Blake McCurdy (@IneffectiveMath) June 23, 2017

whether McDonagh's a top 10 D in the league or not he's gotta be a #1 guy. Sure, he'd be a 2 on LAK, SJS, TBL, OTT, etc but not that many more.

that was one person.

Keith was listed in the top 100!!!! and he won the conn smith TWO YEARS AGO!!!!! Klefbom and Ekholm can't be better than Keith if you ask me.

Do you have any other professional hockey analysis to support you. And it is not just one person, this is completely derived from advanced analytics. here is how to read the card : http://hockeyviz.com/howto/skaterCard

Ekholm is a #1 defensemen whether people realize it not, check the HERO, check the advanced stats, its all there

He would be #2 or or less on
EDM
CGY
SJS
ARZ
LAK
ANA
COL (MAYBE)
CHI (MAYBE)
STL
WIN
NSH
DAL
MIN
OTT
MTL
BOS
BUF
PIT
PHI (MAYBE)
WSH
CBJ
CAR
FLA
TBL

He would be #2 or farther down the depth chart on up to 24 teams.

Teams he would be #1 on
NJ
TOR
NYI
NYR
VGK
VAN (MAYBE)

Do you have any other professional hockey analysis to support you. And it is not just one person, this is completely derived from advanced analytics. here is how to read the card : http://hockeyviz.com/howto/skaterCard