ok then, i guess it tells a lot, but for example, Brian Campbell was ahead of Drew Doughty this year, when i think most would say Doughty's better ... for example, moving the puck is a big part of how good a defenseman is, and i'm guessing that isn't shown in WAR?

This is the ranking, but I mean the actual data. Similar to this, but for 16/17: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oLRAiER3r8phlbtuLkUv7E68v6-b0cqcBc_VXfVDr2g/edit#gid=1446195433

Brian Campbell has a high WAR because he suppresses a lot of shots. WAR isn't designed to be the main contention, but will win an Oscar for best supporting advanced stat. WAR incorporates various metrics.

basically you need to be a patreon sub to use that last site. Could you just add Torey Krug and Parayko to that list for me. I want to see how they stack up to the other guys

yes, but one stat doesn't tell that much, even if it's WAR ... there are a lot of other things involved, like the things i mentioned.

For example, leadership. Guys like Doughty, Keith, McDonagh, etc bring leadership, which is super important in hockey.

I have yet to find the actual data. I got the charts from Garret Hohl via Twitter, but those Media have since been removed. I will proactively look for the data.

Is there a quantitative way to measure the impact of a leader to another individual(s)?

chara is the best defensmen in the game because "Leadership"

well it isn't all about stats ... leadership cannot be found in stats, but it's very valuable. I haven't heard of a stat that shows leadership, but there might be one.

Done : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U5gF9iypiqQ4sfNiwI0XEpaWRCYiSQ9ri5cQqUIwKxg/edit?usp=sharing

So there isn't a way for you to conclusively say that Doughty is more than a leader than Klefbom is, correct? If that is the case, then leadership is negligible for every player because there is no way to conclusively measure how impactful that individual is to another individual(s).

well based on what i've heard, guys like that are great leaders ... at least McDonagh, Karlsson, etc as they are captains of their teams.

Can you conclusively and quantitatively determine that McDonagh is more impactful to his teammates than Klefbom is to his teammates?

no, but you can't do that the other way around either ... i guess i maybe even could by saying that McDonagh is the captain of his team. And Klefbom isn't even an assistant captain ... i mean, maybe Klefbom would go higher than some of these guys for who to build a team around, but if you're saying how good they are right now, i don't see why Klefbom would be a top 10 d-man in the league.

so whens the ruling? Some time tomorrow?

You haven't been able to conclusively remove him from the conversation, which will result in reasonable doubt. Klefbom is 3rd in WAR, has higher HERO/TOI than most players (excluding those w/ 10 TOI), and has impressive visual aid graphs that support my claim.

I think it's on Wednesday.

whenever the debate circles back to regurgitation of the same material.

yes, but when you say 'most players', you might be right, but i'm sure there are 10 defenseman with better stats than Klefbom.

The burden of proof of the bolded statement is on you, not me. You have to rebuttal the stats I threw out (WAR, adj. HERO, etc.)

Let's cut the back and forth out for now.

Rangers, Id ask for you to rebuttal the arguments phillyjabroni has made in one post only

So are you saying i can't answer him right now?

Tbh this is the first time RAIF's arguments didn't make me wanna slam my head against a wall

without McDonagh the Rangers might not have made the playoffs in the past two years. in this specific case the numbers are not in his favor.. but then again, look at who he has his even strength minutes with and you'll understand.