May 6, 2019
Toronto Maple Leafs
2nd Favourite Team
Posts per Day
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Lenny7</b></div><div>At this point, the issue isn't "How good is Josh Manson?", it's "Does this trade help the Ducks long term, or hurt them?". Getting a mid-6 (Johnsson), Bracco, Ceci and potentially a 3rd doesn't help the Ducks. All it does is take away ice-time from the young guys that they're trying to develop in a lost season.
I get that you guys hate Ceci, but if you're going to argue about how Manson is mediocre, then keep Ceci! There! There's your cap space for next year. Problem solved.</div></div>
The argument is Manson is an upgrade over Ceci. And Johnsson is a 24 year old player whos proven he can contribute in the top 6. Maybe Anahiem flips him too, and Ceci and then keeps Bracco to see what he can do with in the NHL. Anahiem doesn't have any capable RHD beyond Manson. That is the problem, not trading or keeping Manson. They aren't good enough, they don't have enough prospects and keeping old guys so they can hope they somehow bounce back is just pointless. Rebuild, sell everything and come back stronger. Or be like LA.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>exo2769</b></div><div>Nothing of major value... Jeeze. Gus has as many points and Nylander's...career best…as a defenseman...that costs $1.2M. Nylander's on a BLISTERING pace for 52 points this year. He's a playmaker that doesn't make enough plays. It's like calling Bob's contact good to date. He's a goalie that's having a hard time stopping the puck from going into the net. I don't care how good his glove side is...if his 5 hole is wide open. I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall throwing out facts and stats and you're just saying forget all that! Who needs facts?! Nylander's a Beast because I say so! Let's blame literally everyone else. Tavares is hurt, Babcock, blah blah blah. You get what you earn. He hasn't earned it and here we are year freaking FIVE...still no sign of living up to that $7M contract. Then the idea of trading him to a team with LESS talent...Surely that'll help him out!</div></div>
If Gus is so good why don't you keep him? If Saad is so good, why not keep him? Especially if Nylander is so bad. Gus scored a tonne of PP points off the back of Kane's skill last year and has nothing else to offer. He's an NHL player sure but where would he fit in TO? Rielly and Muzzin are superior players. As is Barrie. And since Gus is a lefty, he'd be on the 3rd pair. He won't get points on the PP and would get caved in defensively like he does for Chicago on a nightly basis. No thanks.
Saad? If he was so awesome why does literally every Chicago fan try and trade him daily?
I don't ever consider trading Nylander because he's a great player and I doubt the Leafs could get fair value for him. Kapanen I'd trade cause I think he's overrated but I wouldn't want any of the players Chicago has to offer. Anything worthwhile in Chicago is either too old, or too expensive.
Say whatever you want about how much I overrate Leaf players, it doesn't matter. I am not wanting to trade them and neither does Dubas. The one fact you just can't spin in any logical way is this. If you truly think these players are so much better than the players who are trading them for, you'd never make the trade. So obviously Chicago fans don't think much of Gus and hope they can maximize his value based of his one good offensive season (He was terrible defensively like the rest of the team, 3rd most goals allowed in the league last year) and they don't think much of Saad either because they are always trading him. What does that say about these players?
Now I am sure the next argument point is, we need to move them to give young players a chance to shine. That essentially means these guys aren't long term pieces for your rebuilding team, which means one of 2 things, their salary is going to be a long term problem (Both are likely in that case) or currently they aren't better then younger options. In either case, why would a team that is leaving their rebuild want players that aren't good enough to be long term pieces on an inferior team?
Just to clear it up, for every reason you want to move these players, those exact reasons are doubled for why TO has no interest in these players. Saad is not an improvement over either Nylander or Kapanen. And Gus is just a 3rd pair guy in TO because as I have mentioned both Muzzin and Rielly are much better players. So from a team need perspective, TO would have zero interest in any trade along these lines. On top of all that, what team in this day and age moves out two 23 year old high value offensive players for 2 older players that don't improve the team? I'll answer that one for you as well. Maybe Chiarelli but thats about it.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>exo2769</b></div><div>There are 2 reasons in combination as to why everyone (including myself) is trading Gus on here. A.) The hawks are not cups contenders. That's NOT fun for me to type. It's also being a realist. That's very important because if they were...You wouldn't see posts shedding assets. You'd see posts acquiring assets. and B.) The Hawks can't afford to resign him next year. Also very important. Why let him walk away for nothing if you can get SERIOUS assets in return...which you can. Literally 30 other teams can afford a $600k cap hit if the hawks eat half of it. Playoff Contenders will be inquiring about his services...as they already were last year.
Trading Gus literally has nothing to do with his talent. I would LOVE to keep him, but we can't afford him and we also have Boqvist/Mitchell/Beaudin waiting in the wings. The Hawks can utilize that cap space more effectively in other places next year through a #1 goalie and a #2 Center. With that said...why playoff teams WANT the rental (any rental) is because it doesn't affect their cap management next year. Guys like Dubas, McPhee, JR, etc... would at least inquire is because (Let's use Vegas as an example) they could give up some draft capital and just about literally ANY other roster player and stay under the cap. They also won't have to include ANY other pieces that might affect their playoff run in a negative mannner.
FOR EXAMPLE....Imagine for a second if TOR wasn't in the picture. You bet your bottom dollar that if for some ungodly reason TOR isn't in the hunt...Dubas is looking to trade Muzzin and Barrie for future assets. BUT the difference is (sticking with the Vegas example) Cap hit needs to go back. A guy like Eakin who is vital for a playoff run could stay with Vegas if they traded for Gus Vs Barrie. Thousands of examples as to why cap management is important.
I'm not saying TOR wants either Gus or Saad. TOR already has Barrie. He's a poor man's Gus anyway. Why get two players that are mainly focused on offense. But don't pretend that CHI wants Big Willie either. $7M is clearly too much and we're in no way shape or form trying to help TOR with the cap problems. $3.2M for Kasperi...I'm listening as a Hawks fan.</div></div>
A poor man's gus. Lol.
Barrie has a much longer track record of being a top tier offensive defenceman. Not 1 season.
But as for the rest of our statement, I totally get why you want to move them. However, you won't be moving them to a team for better young players in return. Kapanen is as good as Saad and is younger and has a lot more upside that is still untapped. Toronto has no intention of moving Nylander, Babs is far more likely to get canned before Nylander is traded. He's a terrific player and is going to have a great year, of this I have no doubt. His 7 million dollar contract (6.9) isn't at all a problem for the team. After seeing what Marner got, I think Nylander is a steal. But I am also very high on Nylander so I'll admit I have a bias there. No matter how you spin it though, moving 2 younger and highly skilled players for older guys that have less talent and are in need of contracts sooner than the guys they are moving out is an entirely stupid idea.
Why on earth would the Leafs move a guy who would be a top 6 forward on most teams for an expiring contract? Gus isn't as good as Muzzin, and he's an expiring contract. Why would Dubas pay more than he did for Muzzin? He simply wouldn't. So if you guys are moving Gus, its going to be for at best a package similar to Muzzin and since, Gus has exactly 1 good season at the age of 27, I highly doubt you are going to get that much in return. At best, Gus will get you a B prospect and a 1st rounder. More likely, you'll get just a late 1st or maybe a lesser prospect and a 2nd. Because as you mentioned, this guy is going to want to get paid and most contenders won't be able to extend him so it'll be a straight up rental.
I don't want to come across that either Saad or Gus have zero value, that is 100% not the case. I am just saying that from a Leafs perspective Kap at 3.2 is far more attractive than a rental depth defenceman who would be at best the #3 LHD on the team. And Saad vs Nylander isn't even a conversation. Nylander is better, and he's 23 and still is going to get even better. So what are we talking about? If you ask me, we are talking about a dream scenario for Chicago fans and thats it. The reality is, this whole scenario and debate makes no sense for TO.