thats where you are wrong though rw/lw have considerable less value than number 1 or 2 defencemen. this is proven by the fact that the leafs dont wanna pay him his asking price. If nylander was a true center or a young 1 or 2 defenceman than the leafs would of signed him long ago.

I like how everyone that says, "Nylander is definitely not a top 10 RW!" Then lists of 8-10 guys, most are better and some are comparable and then say "See". Okay he's the 11th best RW, should I say Nylander is somewhere in the top 15 RW's in the entire league? Even at that its a top player in the league.

Manson has had 1 season where he put up a lot of points, he's good but lets not go nuts based off 1 decent offensive season.

I also pointed out that the trade I proposed was bad, but Nylander + for Manson is much worse, because Nylander is a better player. That was the point.

I am not undervaluing defensmen. I am comparing valuation based off what salary makes sense for the players. If a fair contract for Pesce is 4 million and a fair contract for Nylander is 6.5 million, they are not equal players. Why would a GM pay a guy less money if he's as good as a different player but just plays a different position? This isn't football where a punter never gets paid much because they aren't nearly as important as a Left Tackle.

Pesce will never make more than 5 million a season, why? Because he has pretty much no offensive capabilities but is really good defensively.

As for Nylander's lower value, go ahead and think that. If we were opposing GM's and you said that to me, I'd just hang up the phone. Think it all you want, Nylander is a fantastic player and one that has massive upside, his value isn't lower. Don't call back until you are ready to be serious here.

@LoganOllivier I noticed the top 10 comps too.. I think TOR should trade Nylander for Pesce + . The "+" is very debatable...maybe it's a pick and Jake Bean??? IDK, but Pesce will help them out and if TOR is truly concerned for the future cap hit...Pesce has a good cap hit (For the BEST years of his career) and picks/prospects also have good cap hits.

If he was a defenceman with his skill level, of course he'd be worth more. I have never debated that top flight defenceman aren't worth as much as forwards. But lets be serious, is Brett Pesce a top defenceman? Is he even a top defenceman on his team? He's probably 3rd best or maybe 4th depending on how much you value moving the puck. He wouldn't be the top guy in Toronto, he'd probably be 3rd there as well, he isn't as valuable as Rielly or Gardiner.

I really don't understand how this debate always moves back into this rhetoric.

Nylander is somewhere in the top 10-15 RW's in the entire league, I don't at all think that means he should get a top 15 defenceman in return. The point though of all of this, is being a top 15 winger should get you more than a middle pair defenceman.

nylander + for mason is a bit much that is true.

pesce on the leafs number 1 pairing would be a 30-40 point defenseman. plus make it possible for Rielly to expand his game on the offensive side.

the problem you would then have as a gm is you would have to pay nylander what he wants. if you hang up on all the gms making these offers you wont get much accomplished as a gm either. you need to think about the fact that yes nylander is an amazing young player but he plays the wing which no matter how you look at it have less value than d men and centers,

I am against pretty much any Pesce trade at this point.

Pesce is a terrific defensive player, but he for a bigger guy he isn't very physical and his offensive game is weak. I keep hearing people say he has a great contract, and I have no idea why. Just because its relatively cheap compared to Nylander doesn't make it a good contract. He doesn't deserve any more than he makes. He's a defensive defenseman and they aren't worth more than that.

A great contract would be Pesce locked up for 6 years at 2.25 million. That's be terrific, but at his current rate its just fair.

omg i would take pesce 10000000000000000000 times before i would let gardiner sit in the press box.

that is what wings are worth though and you are undervaluing pesce and most deals have a + with pesce not a huge one but a decent sized +

Where I'll disagree is that Pesce played on CAR's top pair last year. It's not Pesce's fault that CGY wanted to get younger with Hanifin and decided to send back a better Dman in Hamilton. If I were a TOR fan I'd then say...what about Hamilton??? I could see an argument here too! Hamilton is better than Pesce. Also, a pretty good contract.

Nylander is not a top 10 RW LOL

The most common Pesce trade I've seen is Pesce and a 3rd for Nylander which is a joke. It would have to be something like Pesce, Necas and a conditional 1st for Nylander and Carolina fans say that is insane and it should be Nylander + for Pesce.

I am not overvaluing or undervaluing anyone.

Here is the reality.

Pesce is on a fair contract for what he brings to the table, he's a terrific defensive player with very limited offense. That makes his 4 million dollar deal fair.

Nylander on a fair contract would be somewhere in the ballpark of 6.5-7 million dollars a year for what he brings to the table.

If defenseman are worth more than wingers and these players are of equal skill level, then Pesce would make more salary because defenceman are worth more. The fact that he doesn't now or ever will make more than Nylander, means he is less valuable than Nylander. Why is this so difficult for people to understand.

pesce is on a steal of a deal only you and other leafs fans think its fair. value on what a guy gets paid and value to a team are also vastly different also.

yes you are over and under valuing players.

Hamilton has a bad attitude and is great if you want to take a lot of stupid penalties. I am not at all a fan of Hamilton. Anyone young guy who gets traded twice because of a questionable attitude is a huge red flag.

I like how everyone that says, "Nylander is definitely not a top 10 RW!" Then lists of 8-10 guys, most are better and some are comparable and then say "See". Okay he's the 11th best RW, should I say Nylander is somewhere in the top 15 RW's in the entire league? Even at that its a top player in the league.

Manson has had 1 season where he put up a lot of points, he's good but lets not go nuts based off 1 decent offensive season.

I also pointed out that the trade I proposed was bad, but Nylander + for Manson is much worse, because Nylander is a better player. That was the point.

I am not undervaluing defensmen. I am comparing valuation based off what salary makes sense for the players. If a fair contract for Pesce is 4 million and a fair contract for Nylander is 6.5 million, they are not equal players. Why would a GM pay a guy less money if he's as good as a different player but just plays a different position? This isn't football where a punter never gets paid much because they aren't nearly as important as a Left Tackle.

Pesce will never make more than 5 million a season, why? Because he has pretty much no offensive capabilities but is really good defensively.

As for Nylander's lower value, go ahead and think that. If we were opposing GM's and you said that to me, I'd just hang up the phone. Think it all you want, Nylander is a fantastic player and one that has massive upside, his value isn't lower. Don't call back until you are ready to be serious here.

Would you pay Pesce 7 million a year?

So a player that isn’t signed doesn’t have lower value than he would if he was signed? That’s a joke if I’ve ever heard one, seems like you’re the typical delusional Toronto fan a top 10-15 wing doesn’t equal a top pair Dman, funny how you talk about being serious though “Dont under value my teams player but let me do that to yours” get out of here with that garbage, I never said Nylander had no value, I said he is valuable, just not worth a top pair Dman, especially while he isn’t signed. And I never said Manson is worth Nylander +, although in the current scenario he would be since Toronto has 0 leverage in the deal and the Ducks have 0 reason to trade Manson

i would be very willing to discuss it with his agent depending on my teams needs very similar to what leafs are doing with nylander. his reported ask is 8 + million the leafs are deep on the wings and dont need to pay him that because there need is not there.

how do you know what pesce will get paid.

This is the same thing I have heard so many people say and then give me a list where he is 11th or 12th. Let's just say he's a top 15 RW in the league then. He'd certainly be by far the best RW in Washington.

Kucherov
Kane
Stone
Wheeler
Tarasenko
Granlund
Pasta
Radulov
Arvidsson
Kessel
Marner
Rantanen
Boeser
Voracek
Eberle
Pavelski
Aho
Gallagher
Lindholm

20 RWs

Who would trade anything for a player that they don't know they can sign. Come on man, don't get silly here. If anyone wants to trade for Nylander they will be given permission to offer him a contract and then make the trade once he's agreed to it in principal. That's how these work, and everyone knows that. This whole "his value is getting really low" stuff is just opposing fans wanting to see Toronto bleed a little. It has no basis in reality.

I've repeatedly said that a top 15 RW isn't worth a top 15 defenceman. But tell me, who is the top 15 defenceman being traded to the Leafs? Is Brett Pesce a top 15 defenceman? Not even close.

Who am I overvaluing and who am I undervaluing?

The thing I keep getting blasted for is saying Pesce isn't equal to Nylander, he just isn't. Pesce is a defensive defenceman who is worth about 4 million a year. He is on a fair contract for what he does. Pretty much everyone agrees on that.

Nylander is worth about 6.5 to 7 mill a season, pretty much everyone agrees on that as well.

So I say they are not equal nor are they worth the same. Then everyone loses their minds and tells me I am overvaluing a winger and undervaluing a defenceman.

So explain to me, how a player is worth 4 million salary wise but somehow worth more in a trade than a player who is worth 6.5 million salary wise?

Don't you have anything better to do than to just troll Leaf fans? You have no credibility.

Again you’re trying to put words in my mouth, I never said it’s really low, I said it’s lower than if he was already signed, if a deal gets agreed to before the trade great his value is at what it should be, they can also just trade his rights for a lower value package, not saying that’s what they should do, and neither of us know what’s happening in trade talks and you can’t assume you do, I never said pesche was a top 15 Dman but a top 62 (Top pairing) he certainly is.

With regards to the salary so you wouldn’t want a top pair defenceman in Manson at 4 million a season? If anything that deal makes him more valuable rather than less.
I agree that that’s what Nylander is worth I never said otherwise, but the idea that salary is an exact indicator of value isn’t true at all, there are plenty of bad contracts and plenty of steals.

I'm trolling? This is news to me.

I'm trolling? This is news to me.