Forums/Armchair-GM

The 2016 Penguins Were Much Better Than The Blues

Initial Creation Date: Jun 20, 2019
Published: Jun 20 at 9:15 pm
Team: 2019-20 Pittsburgh Penguins
Team Explanation
I will say this. This St Louis Blues cup winning team is no where near as impressive as the 2016 Pittsburgh Penguins. How can we compare a team that relies on heaviness, grit and intimidation to a team that dominated using speed, skill and creativity? The Penguins played much more beautiful hockey during their run. Plus they won much more convincingly as they outplayed every team in possession, offensive zone time, shots and chances created. The Blues were not as capable in carrying the play compared to the Penguins. There shouldn’t be any debate over this, anyone with hockey knowledge will admit that the Penguins’ 2016 cup was the true definition of how hockey should be played. They were clean, disciplined, fast, skillful and creative with their play style. Totally on a different level.
Free Agent Signings
UFAYEARSCAP HIT
Kunitz, Chris3$4,000,000
Cullen, Matt1$1,000,000
Fehr, Eric3$2,000,000
Lovejoy, Ben3$3,000,000
CREATEDYEARSCAP HIT
Kunhackl, Tom1$1,000,000
Trades
PIT
  1. Sheary, Conor
BUF
    PIT
    1. Bonino, Nick
    NSH
      PIT
      1. Hagelin, Carl
      WSH
        PIT
        1. Cole, Ian
        COL
          PIT
          1. Määttä, Olli
          CHI
            PIT
            1. Daley, Trevor
            DET
              PIT
              1. Fleury, Marc-André
              VGK
                DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
                2019
                PIT
                BUF
                PIT
                TBL
                PIT
                VGK
                2020
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                2021
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                PIT
                ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
                24$82,000,000$102,582,499$132,500$0-$20,582,499

                Roster

                Left WingCenterRight Wing
                BUF
                Sheary, Conor
                $3,000,000
                LW, RW
                UFA - 1
                PIT
                Crosby, Sidney
                $8,700,000
                C
                NMC
                UFA - 6
                PIT
                Guentzel, Jake
                $6,000,000
                LW, RW
                UFA - 5
                PIT
                Rust, Bryan
                $3,500,000
                RW, LW
                UFA - 3
                PIT
                Malkin, Evgeni
                $9,500,000
                C
                NMC
                UFA - 3
                Kunitz, Chris
                $4,000,000
                RW, LW
                UFA
                WSH
                Hagelin, Carl
                $2,750,000
                LW
                UFA - 4
                NSH
                Bonino, Nick
                $4,100,000
                C
                UFA - 2
                PIT
                Kessel, Phil
                $6,800,000
                RW
                NMC NTC
                UFA - 3
                Kunhackl, Tom
                $1,000,000
                PIT
                Cullen, Matt
                $1,000,000
                C, LW
                UFA
                PIT
                Hörnqvist, Patric
                $5,300,000
                RW
                NTC
                UFA - 4
                Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
                PIT
                Dumoulin, Brian
                $4,100,000
                LD
                UFA - 4
                PIT
                Letang, Kris
                $7,250,000
                RD
                NMC NTC
                UFA - 3
                PIT
                Murray, Matt
                $3,750,000
                G
                RFA - 1
                COL
                Cole, Ian
                $4,250,000
                LD
                UFA - 2
                PIT
                Schultz, Justin
                $5,500,000
                RD
                NTC
                UFA - 1
                VGK
                Fleury, Marc-André
                $7,000,000
                G
                NTC
                UFA - 3
                CHI
                Määttä, Olli
                $4,083,333
                LD
                UFA - 3
                Lovejoy, Ben
                $3,000,000
                RD
                UFA
                ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
                PIT
                Simon, Dominik
                $750,000
                RW, LW
                RFA - 1
                DET
                Daley, Trevor
                $3,166,666
                RD
                NTC
                UFA - 1
                PIT
                Bjugstad, Nick
                $4,100,000
                C, RW
                UFA - 2
                Fehr, Eric
                $2,000,000
                C, RW
                UFA
                PIT
                Gudbranson, Erik
                $4,000,000
                RD
                UFA - 2
                PIT
                Ruhwedel, Chad
                $700,000
                RD
                UFA - 2
                PIT
                Johnson, Jack
                $3,250,000
                LD
                UFA - 4
                PIT
                DeSmith, Casey
                $1,250,000
                G
                UFA - 3
                PIT
                Kahun, Dominik
                $925,000
                LW, RW, C
                RFA - 1
                PIT
                McCann, Jared
                $1,250,000
                LW, C
                RFA - 1

                Special Teams

                Power Play 1
                Kessel, P.
                Crosby, S.
                Hörnqvist, P.
                Schultz, J.
                Malkin, E.
                Power Play 2
                Kunitz, C.
                Bonino, N.
                Guentzel, J.
                Sheary, C.
                Letang, K.
                Penalty Kill 1
                Bonino, N.
                Hagelin, C.
                Dumoulin, B.
                Letang, K.
                Penalty Kill 2
                Cullen, M.
                Kunhackl, T.
                Cole, I.
                Lovejoy, B.

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                Jun 20 at 11:23
                #26
                Joined: Apr 2017
                Posts: 703
                Likes: 124
                What a stupid post.
                Chopper02, okrepps185 and rja40 liked this.
                Jun 20 at 11:30
                #27
                Joined: Jan 2017
                Posts: 2,873
                Likes: 660
                Quoting: MichaelFu
                😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

                You’re delusional if you think this Blues team is on the same level as the 2016 Penguins. The Blues won because they intimidated their opponents, the Penguins won because of their skill. Tell me which is more impressive? Also, the 2016 Penguins had the better defensive play throughout the playoffs. They conceded fewer shots, attempts and chances than this current Blues team. Most of the time they were in the offensive zone cycling the puck and creating chances. As they often say it, attack is the best type of the defense. That’s what the Penguins did. Not downplaying the Blues’ achievement, the Penguins were simply better.


                A) You are downplaying the Blues achievement by starting this thread (which is pretty pointless)
                B) You could make this Blues team as a whole was better than any of the 3 New Jersey teams that won.

                Those New Jersey teams, while having tremendous players in Stevens, Niedermeyer, and Brodeur, also didnt have much skill up front, but because of their sound defense and hard work they won. That's what I would compare this Blues team to and not the Penguins. Sometimes it isn't about how much skill you have, it's about hard work and working harder than the other teams. Blues did that to every opponent. If it was simply based on skill, Detroit wouldnt have gotten swept by New Jersey and Boston would be the Champions in 2019. But that didn't happen so this conversation is useless.
                Jun 20 at 11:34
                #28
                Joined: Jan 2017
                Posts: 2,873
                Likes: 660
                Quoting: MichaelFu
                That’s not the point. The Blues won by playing extremely heavy, cheap, dirty, reckless and violent hockey. Their game plan was to intimidate their opponent as much as possible. As much as physical play is part of hockey, the true way to play the sport is to dominate using your skating, agility, stick handling, creativity and talent with the puck. The 2016 Penguins were far better.


                They weren't dirty so that makes you delusional. They are very physical on the forecheck, but if you watch the games, you'll see why they actually win. The Blues were one of, if not, the best cycling teams in the playoffs. They forechecked hard, got possession of the puck, cycled like crazy and wore down opposing defenses. That's what won them the Cup.
                Jun 21 at 12:44
                #29
                Okrepps85
                Joined: Sep 2017
                Posts: 1,431
                Likes: 137
                Quoting: MichaelFu
                Yes you are right, thanks for the information. But still, this Penguins team was way better than the Blues.


                Agree. But don't try and take anything away from them, they still won.
                Jun 21 at 12:47
                #30
                Okrepps85
                Joined: Sep 2017
                Posts: 1,431
                Likes: 137
                Quoting: BluesBandit
                What a stupid post.

                Yeah as a Pens fan I agree, were all not like this don't worry.
                Jun 21 at 6:22
                #31
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: BluesBandit
                What a stupid post.


                Why is this stupid? The truth is, the 2016 Pittsburgh Penguins were much better than the 2019 Blues.
                Jun 21 at 12:40
                #32
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: Chopper02
                They weren't dirty so that makes you delusional. They are very physical on the forecheck, but if you watch the games, you'll see why they actually win. The Blues were one of, if not, the best cycling teams in the playoffs. They forechecked hard, got possession of the puck, cycled like crazy and wore down opposing defenses. That's what won them the Cup.


                Now tell me what’s better, a team that is only able to win because of their physicality and intimidation, or a team that wins by dominating their opponents using speed, skill and creativity. One style is the definition of true beautiful hockey, the other is not.
                Jun 21 at 12:52
                #33
                Joined: Jan 2017
                Posts: 2,873
                Likes: 660
                Quoting: MichaelFu
                Now tell me what’s better, a team that is only able to win because of their physicality and intimidation, or a team that wins by dominating their opponents using speed, skill and creativity. One style is the definition of true beautiful hockey, the other is not.


                Problem with your assessment is that Blues didn't have any skill. The Blues have plenty of skill, but more than just that, they had a lot more defensive skill than that 2016 Penguins team. Did you watch how well the Blues controlled the puck? Did you see how they kept cycling the puck and wear down the opponents? That takes skill. You cant win with intimidation in this league or else a team like Washington and St. Louis would win every year.
                Jun 21 at 4:59
                #34
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: Chopper02
                Problem with your assessment is that Blues didn't have any skill. The Blues have plenty of skill, but more than just that, they had a lot more defensive skill than that 2016 Penguins team. Did you watch how well the Blues controlled the puck? Did you see how they kept cycling the puck and wear down the opponents? That takes skill. You cant win with intimidation in this league or else a team like Washington and St. Louis would win every year.


                You are wrong, the Blues had much less skill compared to the 2016 Penguins. The Blues wore down their opponents using their heaviness, the Penguins cycled their opponents using quick puck movement and creative playmaking which is much more purely skill based. It is true that on paper, the Blues have the better defensive players, but the Penguins defended better as a unit. It is evident as they conceded fewer shots, chances and defensive zone time in the playoffs compared to this year’s Blues. The Penguins didn’t need to play physical defensive hockey to win because they spent so much time in the offensive zone. Attacking is the best type of defense, you can’t deny that. Also, the Penguins were far better than the Blues in cycling the puck and keeping possession. That’s why they had a much higher average of attempts, shots and chances generated per game compared to this Blues team. There’s no debate, the 2016 Penguins were by far superior to the Blues in all aspects except physicality and intimidation, which they didn’t need because they had more skill and talent. It makes me laugh when people like you tell me the Blues would crush the 2016 Penguins in a 7 game series.
                Jun 21 at 5:27
                #35
                Joined: Jan 2017
                Posts: 2,873
                Likes: 660
                Quoting: MichaelFu
                You are wrong, the Blues had much less skill compared to the 2016 Penguins. The Blues wore down their opponents using their heaviness, the Penguins cycled their opponents using quick puck movement and creative playmaking which is much more purely skill based. It is true that on paper, the Blues have the better defensive players, but the Penguins defended better as a unit. It is evident as they conceded fewer shots, chances and defensive zone time in the playoffs compared to this year’s Blues. The Penguins didn’t need to play physical defensive hockey to win because they spent so much time in the offensive zone. Attacking is the best type of defense, you can’t deny that. Also, the Penguins were far better than the Blues in cycling the puck and keeping possession. That’s why they had a much higher average of attempts, shots and chances generated per game compared to this Blues team. There’s no debate, the 2016 Penguins were by far superior to the Blues in all aspects except physicality and intimidation, which they didn’t need because they had more skill and talent. It makes me laugh when people like you tell me the Blues would crush the 2016 Penguins in a 7 game series.


                Let's start with the last point, I never said Blues would crush the Penguins in a 7 game series. So that's dead wrong. Secondly, the Blues we're great at cycling the puck and puck protection. If you're using shot metrics to validate your argument, then you also need to look at where the shots come from. Most of the chances given up by the Blues were from the perimeter. Yes, they allowed quality scoring chances just like everybody else, but that happens when every team is good in the playoffs. The Blues are a great cycling team and are great forecheckers. If you deny that than you're blind. Blues didn't allow a ton of defensive zone time either. One of the things that's praised about the Blues is their ability to play the trap game on defense. Did you not see it? Again, there were certainly moments in every game where tbe opposing team is pushing, but that happens in every game against every team.
                You keep mentioning intimidation is what won them the Cup. Do you honestly think intimidation alone can win? If so, there is no sense having a logical discussion with you because if intimidation was all they had than Winnipeg would have won out because they were bigger and just as physical.
                Also, based on your logic, the 2016 Penguins would have gotten the crap kicked out of them by the 96 Avalanche, the 97 and 98 and 2002 Red wings, the Dallas Stars, any laundry list of teams. It doesn't matter the year, the Blues team finished off as the best and that's that.
                Jun 21 at 7:02
                #36
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: Chopper02
                Let's start with the last point, I never said Blues would crush the Penguins in a 7 game series. So that's dead wrong. Secondly, the Blues we're great at cycling the puck and puck protection. If you're using shot metrics to validate your argument, then you also need to look at where the shots come from. Most of the chances given up by the Blues were from the perimeter. Yes, they allowed quality scoring chances just like everybody else, but that happens when every team is good in the playoffs. The Blues are a great cycling team and are great forecheckers. If you deny that than you're blind. Blues didn't allow a ton of defensive zone time either. One of the things that's praised about the Blues is their ability to play the trap game on defense. Did you not see it? Again, there were certainly moments in every game where tbe opposing team is pushing, but that happens in every game against every team.
                You keep mentioning intimidation is what won them the Cup. Do you honestly think intimidation alone can win? If so, there is no sense having a logical discussion with you because if intimidation was all they had than Winnipeg would have won out because they were bigger and just as physical.
                Also, based on your logic, the 2016 Penguins would have gotten the crap kicked out of them by the 96 Avalanche, the 97 and 98 and 2002 Red wings, the Dallas Stars, any laundry list of teams. It doesn't matter the year, the Blues team finished off as the best and that's that.


                There is no denying that the Blues were a rest forecheck cycling team and also had an effective defensive structure. But even so, statistics show that the 2016 Penguins generated more offensive zone time, more attempts, shots and scoring chances. Plus they also gave up less scoring chances per game as well. So what does this tell you? Stop arguing that this Blues team was better than the Penguins, the facts clearly state they are not. As great at this Blues team is, they are not even close to being as good as the Penguins. That Penguins team was based off speed, puck movement, skill, creativity and forechecking. They had the ability to destroy any team.
                Jun 21 at 11:09
                #37
                Joined: Jan 2017
                Posts: 2,873
                Likes: 660
                Quoting: MichaelFu
                There is no denying that the Blues were a rest forecheck cycling team and also had an effective defensive structure. But even so, statistics show that the 2016 Penguins generated more offensive zone time, more attempts, shots and scoring chances. Plus they also gave up less scoring chances per game as well. So what does this tell you? Stop arguing that this Blues team was better than the Penguins, the facts clearly state they are not. As great at this Blues team is, they are not even close to being as good as the Penguins. That Penguins team was based off speed, puck movement, skill, creativity and forechecking. They had the ability to destroy any team.


                I never said one time that the Blues were better than 2016 Pittsburgh Penguins. You can look at this thread up and down. Your premise at the beginning was the Blues had no skill, and what I'm saying is they have plenty of skill and a great system and that's why they won.
                Jul 28 at 11:13
                #38
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Edited Jul 28 at 11:25
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                The 2016 Penguins were the best Stanley Cup Champions over the past 10 years. They were more dominant in controlling the play even compared to the 2012 Kings and 2013 Blackhawks. They are the only team I’ve seen generate as much zone time, puck possession, shots and chances on a nightly basis, yet giving up so little.



                No they werent.. Check the stats 2012 Kings, 2013, 2010 Chicago with Niemi all had better possession stats. Chicago and 2008 set the precedent for skill down the line up and possession top 3 in possesion are 08 Detroit, 13 Chicago, and 12 Kings with the 10 Hawks jumping in with 16 Pit right after.

                10 and 13 Hawks had speed, skill, depth, and even size for 2010's case there isnt a real edge Pit has when you are talking about a Hawks team that had 3 #1 Dmen or 4 top pairing guys (with Campbell in on 2010). Chicago had the better forwards, defense, and goalie for 13. Pit could beat the 15 team but not the 13 and the 2010 team's overwhelming possession and scoring would beat them out
                Jul 28 at 11:18
                #39
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Edited Jul 28 at 11:26
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                You are wrong, the Sharks were actually a force to be reckoned with during that 2016 cup run. You are downplaying their brilliance because the Penguins beat them in a lopsided 6 game series in which they were heavily outplayed. Keep in mind that before the series started, almost all experts predicted that the Sharks would crush the Penguins in 4 or 5 games.


                Bruins dismantled the east's favorites shutting them out a majority of the series and held Sid and Malkin pointless that alone makes them better than the 2016 Sharks. Peak Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuk are better than Burns, Vlassic, Braun. Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Seguin, Lucic, Horton all in their primes/peaks were a better forward group than Pavelski, Thornton, Hertl etc. Sharks were literally a one line team forward wise all the while Rask is better than Jones ever was.

                You have some clear vendetta every time a team that isnt Pittsburgh wins and have to pull out the "member 2016 guys" you are a clown lmao no one has said the current blues were better than any past champions check your ego mate
                Jul 28 at 11:31
                #40
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: MadmanFromMadison
                No they werent.. Check the stats 2012 Kings, 2013, 2010 Chicago with Niemi all had better possession stats. Chicago and 2008 set the precedent for skill down the line up and possession top 3 in possesion are 08 Detroit, 13 Chicago, and 12 Kings with the 10 Hawks jumping in with 16 Pit right after.

                10 and 13 Hawks had speed, skill, depth, and even size for 2010's case there isnt a real edge Pit has when you are talking about a Hawks team that had 3 #1 Dmen or 4 top pairing guys (with Campbell in on 2010). Chicago had the better forwards, defense, and goalie for 13. Pit could beat the 15 team but not the 13 and the 2010 team's overwhelming possession and scoring would beat them out


                I disagree, Sid and Geno were better than Kane and Toews.
                Jul 28 at 11:50
                #41
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                I disagree, Sid and Geno were better than Kane and Toews.



                Toews owns Crosby while Malkin wouldnt be producing against Kruger and Keith-Seabrook behind him they would be a non factors if the 16 Pens matched up while the 2010 or 2013 of the Hawks.

                Prime Keith, Hjalmarsson, Seabrook, thats three Dmen better than the Pens #1 and all three would shut down any other scoring threats the Pens may have in the Malkin and Kessel(HBK line).

                Chicago's system constantly suffocates the Pens time and time again, there is a reason the one team Sid and Geno are close to a combined -30 against Chicago in their careers and are barely even above .5ppg in their careers against Chicago.

                Their star power would be neutralized with Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Bolland, Hjalmarsson, Kruger/Madden being able to shadow any offensive threat Pit had. All the while Chicago's depth would overcome as Hossa, Sharp, Byfuglien, Versteeg, Campbell, Ladd, Bolland, are better than Kessel, Kunitz, Sheary, Bonino, Rust etc

                Finally

                Kane and Toews career vs the Pens

                Kane: 15 GP: 21 PTS +9
                Toews: 16GP 18PTS +10

                Combined 31GP 39pts +19

                Now here is where it gets funny

                Malkin: 13GP 9 Pts -14
                Crosby: 14GP 7 Pts -12
                Combined 27GP: 16pts -26

                Domination. Malkin and Sid cant preform against them Chicago is the worst team for both of them.

                Pens depth guys are worse, their stars get suffocated when playing against chicago while Kane and Toews light them up, Chicagos 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on

                End thread Pit loses which has always been the norm already
                Jul 28 at 11:54
                #42
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: MadmanFromMadison
                Toews owns Crosby while Malkin wouldnt be producing against Kruger and Keith-Seabrook behind him they would be a non factors if the 16 Pens matched up while the 2010 or 2013 of the Hawks.

                Prime Keith, Hjalmarsson, Seabrook, thats three Dmen better than the Pens #1 and all three would shut down any other scoring threats the Pens may have in the Malkin and Kessel(HBK line).

                Chicago's system constantly suffocates the Pens time and time again, there is a reason the one team Sid and Geno are close to a combined -30 against Chicago in their careers while being well below .5ppg in their careers. Their star power would be neutralized while Chicago's depth would overcome as Hossa, Sharp, Teuvo, Byfuglien, Versteeg, Campbell, Ladd, Bolland, are better than Kessel, Kunitz, Sheary, Bonino, Rust etc

                Finally

                Kane and Toews career vs the Pens

                Kane: 15 GP: 21 PTS +9
                Toews: 16GP 18PTS +10

                Combined 31GP 39pts +19

                Now here is where it gets funny

                Malkin: 13GP 9 Pts -14
                Crosby: 14GP 7 Pts -12
                Combined 27GP: 16pts -26



                Pens depth guys are worse, their stars get suffocated when playing against chicago while Kane and Toews light them up, Chicagos 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on

                End thread Pit loses which has always been the norm already


                The fact that you said Kruger is better than Malkin proves to me you are delusional, just another American who doesn’t understand hockey. I am always amazed how stupid people can be, and you are probably as **** as it can get. It’s not only about head to head match ups, Crosby and Malkin dominate Kane and Toews in individual skill, trophies and point production throughout the entirety of their careers.
                Jul 28 at 12:05
                #43
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                The fact that you said Kruger is better than Malkin proves to me you are delusional, just another American who doesn’t understand hockey. I am always amazed how stupid people can be, and you are probably as **** as it can get. It’s not only about head to head match ups, Crosby and Malkin dominate Kane and Toews in individual skill, trophies and point production throughout the entirety of their careers.



                Are you stupid or can you not read? Where do you get the notion that they are better? What I said is that they would make Crosby, Malkin, Kessel non factors and shut them down my god you are illiterate. This is about the better team not the better individuals in which the Hawks would suffocate the Pens with Chicago's system and the defensive skill of Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Bolland, Hjalmarsson Kruger/John Madden would prevent Crosby and Malkin from doing anything.

                Im going to type in bold letters so maybe you can understand better since reading isnt your strong suit (stop eating crayons btw) Crosby and Malkin would not be able to produce against the 10 or 13 Hawks. Toews, Kruger/Madden, Bolland would prevent Crosby, Malkin and the HBK line from producing as much in a head to head that doesnt mean any of those guys are better, just that they would be able to neutralize their skill which is somehow lost on you



                Different example being Sami Pahlson, Moen, and Rob Niedermeyer shutting down the Pizza line (Heatley, Spezza, Alfredsson) in the 07 Finals. Those three shut down the best line in the league that season, that doesnt mean any of those 4th liners have better skill than the Pizza line guys, just that they can shut down top opposition guys which is important when it comes to winning games. This somehow hard for you to grasp but depth guys especially guys who can matchup against a team's offensive threats and make them a nonfactor on the ice matters in a hypothetical head to head matchup.

                Kruger, Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Bolland, Madden, Toews, and Hossa would be able to limit the impact Crosby, Malkin and the Kessel line would have on the ice which is why the 2016 Pens arent better they would lose in a head to head matchup even with Sid and Malkin being better individually they cant overcome the depth Chicago had those years and would have a limited impact on the ice. Just like Sid and Geno being held pointless in the Bruins series depth guys that can take out the oppositions best guys wins games even if Sid and Malkin were better than any single player on the Bruins they couldnt overcome their system and the defensive forwards.
                Jul 28 at 12:21
                #44
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: MadmanFromMadison
                Are you stupid or can you not read? Where do you get the notion that they are better? What I said is that they would make Crosby, Malkin, Kessel non factors and shut them down my god you are illiterate. This is about the better team not the better individuals in which the Hawks would suffocate the Pens with Chicago's system and the defensive skill of Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Bolland, Hjalmarsson Kruger/John Madden would prevent Crosby and Malkin from doing anything.

                Im going to type in bold letters so maybe you can understand better since reading isnt your strong suit (stop eating crayons btw) Crosby and Malkin would not be able to produce against the 10 or 13 Hawks. Toews, Kruger/Madden, Bolland would prevent Crosby, Malkin and the HBK line from producing as much in a head to head that doesnt mean any of those guys are better, just that they would be able to neutralize their skill which is somehow lost on you



                Different example being Sami Pahlson, Moen, and Rob Niedermeyer shutting down the Pizza line (Heatley, Spezza, Alfredsson) in the 07 Finals. Those three shut down the best line in the league that season, that doesnt mean any of those 4th liners have better skill than the Pizza line guys, just that they can shut down top opposition guys which is important when it comes to winning games. This somehow hard for you to grasp but depth guys especially guys who can matchup against a team's offensive threats and make them a nonfactor on the ice matters in a hypothetical head to head matchup.

                Kruger, Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Bolland, Madden, Toews, and Hossa would be able to limit the impact Crosby, Malkin and the Kessel line would have on the ice which is why the 2016 Pens arent better they would lose in a head to head matchup even with Sid and Malkin being better individually they cant overcome the depth Chicago had those years and would have a limited impact on the ice. Just like Sid and Geno being held pointless in the Bruins series depth guys that can take out the oppositions best guys wins games even if Sid and Malkin were better than any single player on the Bruins they couldnt overcome their system and the defensive forwards.


                I disagree that Toews would’ve easily shut down Crosby. If you are to put Toews at his best and Crosby at his best, match them up, Crosby would dominate. There’s not even a debate to that.
                Jul 28 at 1:15
                #45
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Edited Jul 28 at 1:21
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                I disagree that Toews would’ve easily shut down Crosby. If you are to put Toews at his best and Crosby at his best, match them up, Crosby would dominate. There’s not even a debate to that.


                Their actual head to head stats against their respective teams shows that your oppinion is not only uninformed but is a load of crap already. Toews PPG against the Pens vs Sid at his best is .5ppg and a -14 that is literally through their entire career with Sid being the better player he cant handle defensive forwards like Toews, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron, even the Isles series he was manhandled by the Czikas, Martin, Clutterbuck line and held to a single assist that series in terms of scoring all the while being a minus 4. Even internationally for Canada Toews has been the better forward for the 2010 and 14 olympics while Crosby was MIA until the gold medal game (where Toews actually produced the entire tourney and in the gold medal games on top of it)

                Sid gets shut down by Toews end of story. Thats not even mentioning that Toews's line would have Hossa and Sharp riding shotgun with him who are also great defensively while being PPG players as well they would feast on Hornqvist and Sheary and outskate them too. You have no argument here, Crosby cant handle defensively responsible players. You can mention how Sid can beat up on teams like the Devils, Sens, and a bunch of Islander teams that had DiPietro as their starting goalie until you are blue in the face that doesnt mean he has anything close to the production against those teams as he would against teams that play defense..

                Sid cant handle Toews, Kopitar, Zetterberg, Barkov, Datsyuk, Bergeron etc they can shut him down and make him look pedestrian. There is a reason why Chicago has been the worst team Sid fares against LITERALLY THROUGHOUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER
                Jul 28 at 1:40
                #46
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: MadmanFromMadison
                Their actual head to head stats against their respective teams shows that your oppinion is not only uninformed but is a load of crap already. Toews PPG against the Pens vs Sid at his best is .5ppg and a -14 that is literally through their entire career with Sid being the better player he cant handle defensive forwards like Toews, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron, even the Isles series he was manhandled by the Czikas, Martin, Clutterbuck line and held to a single assist that series in terms of scoring. Even internationally for Canada Toews has been the better forward for the 2010 and 14 olympics while Crosby was MIA until the gold medal game (where Toews actually produced the entire tourney and in the gold medal games on top of it)

                Sid gets shut down by Toews end of story. Thats not even mentioning that Toews's line would have Hossa and Sharp riding shotgun with him who are also great defensively while being PPG players as well they would feast on Hornqvist and Sheary and outskate them too. You have no argument here, Crosby cant handle defensively responsible players. You can mention how Sid can beat up on teams like the Devils, Sens, and a bunch of Islander teams that had DiPietro as their starting goalie until you are blue in the face that doesnt mean he has anything close to the production against those teams as he would against teams that play defense..

                Sid cant handle Toews, Kopitar, Zetterberg, Barkov, Datsyuk, Bergeron etc they can shut him down and make him look pedestrian. There is a reason why Chicago has been the worst team Sid fares against LITERALLY THROUGHOUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER


                You are by far the stupidest person ever, I have never seen someone doubt Crosby’s greatness to this extent. Crosby actually played really well in the 2008 cup finals by carrying the Penguins’ offensive load. He was invisible the first 2 games but later on in the series caused a lot of trouble to Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the offensive zone by possessing the puck and generating chances with his agility and unpredictable creativity. Whenever he was on the ice the Wings were on their heels. Even though they lost it doesn’t mean he played poorly. Go back and look at the time Crosby manhandled Giroux in the 2018 opening round. What about in 2017 when he absolutely suffocated Stone? 2013 he dominated against Tavares and made some astonishing offensive plays. If what you said about Crosby is true and he actually can’t perform against big teams, then he wouldn’t be so highly recognized in the history of the game. Toews may be a more clutch performer than Crosby, but his overall skill level is far and away compared to your captain serious. Every player has poor periods, and Crosby at his worst game up against Toews and Bergeron at their peak. If we were to put peak Sid and peak Toews in a 1v1 matchup, Sid would come out on top and it wouldn’t even be close. Crosby at his best is better than Toews.
                Jul 28 at 1:53
                #47
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: MadmanFromMadison
                Their actual head to head stats against their respective teams shows that your oppinion is not only uninformed but is a load of crap already. Toews PPG against the Pens vs Sid at his best is .5ppg and a -14 that is literally through their entire career with Sid being the better player he cant handle defensive forwards like Toews, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron, even the Isles series he was manhandled by the Czikas, Martin, Clutterbuck line and held to a single assist that series in terms of scoring all the while being a minus 4. Even internationally for Canada Toews has been the better forward for the 2010 and 14 olympics while Crosby was MIA until the gold medal game (where Toews actually produced the entire tourney and in the gold medal games on top of it)

                Sid gets shut down by Toews end of story. Thats not even mentioning that Toews's line would have Hossa and Sharp riding shotgun with him who are also great defensively while being PPG players as well they would feast on Hornqvist and Sheary and outskate them too. You have no argument here, Crosby cant handle defensively responsible players. You can mention how Sid can beat up on teams like the Devils, Sens, and a bunch of Islander teams that had DiPietro as their starting goalie until you are blue in the face that doesnt mean he has anything close to the production against those teams as he would against teams that play defense..

                Sid cant handle Toews, Kopitar, Zetterberg, Barkov, Datsyuk, Bergeron etc they can shut him down and make him look pedestrian. There is a reason why Chicago has been the worst team Sid fares against LITERALLY THROUGHOUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER


                Since you are so confident this generation’s greatest Hawks team would absolutely destroy the Penguins’ dynasty, let us compare the lineups. Below I will put the EA Sports ratings of each player at their peak:

                Hawks:
                Sharp (88) - Toews (93) - Hossa (92)
                Saad (86) - Richards (88) - Kane (95)
                Shaw (85) - Handzus (84) - Versteeg (85)
                Bickell (84) - Kruger (83) - Bolland (84)

                Keith (94) - Seabrook (89)
                Campbell (89) - Byfuglien (88)
                Hjalmarsson (86) - Oduya (85)

                Crawford (88)
                Emery (83)

                Penguins:
                Guentzel (87) - Crosby (97) - Sheary (82)
                Rust (83) - Malkin (95) - Hornqvist (86)
                Hagelin (85) - Bonino (85) - Kessel (90)
                Kunitz (87) - Cullen (84) - Kunhackl (81)

                Dumoulin (88) - Letang (90)
                Maatta (85) - Daley (86)
                Cole (84) - Schultz (87)

                Murray (88)
                Fleury (91)

                Obviously the Hawks team on paper looks more stacked. But the Penguins during their cup run averaged 38 shots on goal per game and gave up an average of 22. Majority of the game they were moving the puck in the offensive zone, only 2 times they got outplayed. The Hawks were not as dominant in generating scoring chances during their playoff.
                Jul 28 at 1:57
                #48
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                You are by far the stupidest person ever, I have never seen someone doubt Crosby’s greatness to this extent. Crosby actually played really well in the 2008 cup finals by carrying the Penguins’ offensive load. He was invisible the first 2 games but later on in the series caused a lot of trouble to Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the offensive zone by possessing the puck and generating chances with his agility and unpredictable creativity. Whenever he was on the ice the Wings were on their heels. Even though they lost it doesn’t mean he played poorly. Go back and look at the time Crosby manhandled Giroux in the 2018 opening round. What about in 2017 when he absolutely suffocated Stone? 2013 he dominated against Tavares and made some astonishing offensive plays. If what you said about Crosby is true and he actually can’t perform against big teams, then he wouldn’t be so highly recognized in the history of the game. Toews may be a more clutch performer than Crosby, but his overall skill level is far and away compared to your captain serious. Every player has poor periods, and Crosby at his worst game up against Toews and Bergeron at their peak. If we were to put peak Sid and peak Toews in a 1v1 matchup, Sid would come out on top and it wouldn’t even be close. Crosby at his best is better than Toews.


                Sid has never once come up on top against Toews. Crosby did not manhandle Giroux in 2018 he took advantage of the Flyers pathetic goaltending. Crosby didnt suffocate stone at all in 2017 lol where do you get these narratives from? Crosby consistently plays awful against Toews and that was with Sid at his best. Toews neutralized Crosby consistently you cant just cling to a made up narrative to support your ego while ignoring an entire career's worth of games against eachother Toews daddies Sid end of discussion. You can keep making up false points about Sid would do different (wont happen lol) when what has actually happened is that Sid never produced significantly at all when against Toews he is a -14 he is scored on more than he scores. The 16 Pens would not stand a chance against the 10 Hawks or the 13 Hawks both would make Sid, Malkin, and Kessel disappear in a game. They arent the best cup winner nor does Sid have a great track record against Toews. The amount of excuses you have for his sub PPG and -14 against Toews is astounding. I can at least appreciate your dedication to staying in character though being a complete clown.

                Next offseason will you make another post about how the 16 Pens are still the greatest just to make yourself feel better?



                Also PS your ratings that you do for NHL are also trash which makes you calling anyone else stupid an oxymoron.
                Jul 28 at 2:07
                #49
                Joined: Dec 2016
                Posts: 487
                Likes: 111
                Quoting: BrandonDubinskyGOAT
                Since you are so confident this generation’s greatest Hawks team would absolutely destroy the Penguins’ dynasty, let us compare the lineups. Below I will put the EA Sports ratings of each player at their peak:

                Hawks:
                Sharp (88) - Toews (93) - Hossa (92)
                Saad (86) - Richards (88) - Kane (95)
                Shaw (85) - Handzus (84) - Versteeg (85)
                Bickell (84) - Kruger (83) - Bolland (84)

                Keith (94) - Seabrook (89)
                Campbell (89) - Byfuglien (88)
                Hjalmarsson (86) - Oduya (85)

                Crawford (88)
                Emery (83)

                Penguins:
                Guentzel (87) - Crosby (97) - Sheary (82)
                Rust (83) - Malkin (95) - Hornqvist (86)
                Hagelin (85) - Bonino (85) - Kessel (90)
                Kunitz (87) - Cullen (84) - Kunhackl (81)

                Dumoulin (88) - Letang (90)
                Maatta (85) - Daley (86)
                Cole (84) - Schultz (87)

                Murray (88)
                Fleury (91)

                Obviously the Hawks team on paper looks more stacked. But the Penguins during their cup run averaged 38 shots on goal per game and gave up an average of 22. Majority of the game they were moving the puck in the offensive zone, only 2 times they got outplayed. The Hawks were not as dominant in generating scoring chances during their playoff.



                Lol 2010 Hawks averaged 25 Shots against (best in the league) and 35 shots for (also best in the league) literally the best shot differential in the league

                2016 Pens only had a plus 4 shot differential...

                Hawks constantly controlled play in the playoffs wtf are you talking about. The west during that period was a lot more stingy defensively with Teams like LA, Detroit, Nashville being stiffling defensive systems.

                Also LOL @ using EA ratings as scientific evidence no one would take Fleury over Crawford. MAF has been the worst goalie in the playoffs for what was the majority of his career.
                Jul 28 at 2:09
                #50
                Thread Starter
                BrandonDubinskyGoat
                Joined: Apr 2019
                Posts: 2,164
                Likes: 453
                Quoting: MadmanFromMadison
                Sid has never once come up on top against Toews. Crosby did not manhandle Giroux in 2018 he took advantage of the Flyers pathetic goaltending. Crosby didnt suffocate stone at all in 2017 lol where do you get these narratives from? Crosby consistently plays awful against Toews and that was with Sid at his best. Toews neutralized Crosby consistently you cant just cling to a made up narrative to support your ego while ignoring an entire career's worth of games against eachother Toews daddies Sid end of discussion. You can keep making up false points about Sid would do different (wont happen lol) when what has actually happened is that Sid never produced significantly at all when against Toews he is a -14 he is scored on more than he scores. The 16 Pens would not stand a chance against the 10 Hawks or the 13 Hawks both would make Sid, Malkin, and Kessel disappear in a game. They arent the best cup winner nor does Sid have a great track record against Toews. The amount of excuses you have for his sub PPG and -14 against Toews is astounding. I can at least appreciate your dedication to staying in character though being a complete clown.

                Next offseason will you make another post about how the 16 Pens are still the greatest just to make yourself feel better?





                Also PS your ratings that you do for NHL are also trash which makes you calling anyone else stupid an oxymoron.


                If you watch the 2017 playoffs against the Sens, you would see that Crosby was dominant. He was driving the play in the offensive zone, maintaining possession and generating scoring opportunities. The Sens has a very good defensive system and the Penguins led by Crosby dismantled it easily. They had way more possession, shots and chances than their opposition. The same can be said in 2018 against Philly. It was not just the goals, Crosby's presence all throughout the ice was impactful. Crosby at his best is just on another level compared to Toews, regardless of possession numbers and head to head matchups. I seriously cannot believe even after Crosby won his 3 cups and 2 playoff MVPs, you delusional Hawks fans still try and find ways to claim that Toews is the better player between the two.
                 
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