Forums/Armchair-GM

Mathews Should Be As Good As Gone

Created by: MG1986
Initial Creation Date: Oct 22, 2019
Published: Oct 25 at 11:03 pm
Team: 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs
Team Explanation
Specifically, would Blues fans do it?

Would Leafs' fans do it?

I am more curious of value, and the fact that the Leafs are dying for defense where Matthews, as elite as he is offensively, may never offer that back-check, or 200-foot game, a true start two-way centre should be doing (aka a young Jonathan Toews).
Trades
TOR
  1. O'Reilly, Ryan
  2. Parayko, Colton
STL
  1. Matthews, Auston
  2. Ceci, Cody
TOR
  1. Campbell, Jack
  2. 2020 4th round pick (LAK)
LAK
  1. Petan, Nicolas
  2. Lindgren, Jesper
  3. 2020 6th round pick (COL)
  4. 2020 7th round pick (WPG)
Buyouts
  • Mikhail Grabovski: $0
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Phil Kessel: $1,200,000 (15%)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2020
TOR
CBJ
TOR
VGK
LAK
TOR
CAR
EDM
SJS
STL
2021
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
23$81,500,000$79,588,143$0$70,000$1,911,857
Left WingCenterRight Wing
TOR
Hyman, Zach
$2,250,000
LW
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 6
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
$10,893,000
RW
UFA - 6
TOR
Johnsson, Andreas
$3,400,000
LW
UFA - 4
STL
O'Reilly, Ryan
$7,500,000
C
UFA - 4
TOR
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, C
UFA - 5
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
$925,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
$3,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 4
TOR
Kapanen, Kasperi
$3,200,000
RW
RFA - 3
TOR
Timashov, Dmytro
$694,444
LW
RFA - 1
TOR
Shore, Nick
$750,000
C
UFA - 1
TOR
Moore, Trevor
$775,000
RW, LW
RFA - 2
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
UFA - 3
STL
Parayko, Colton
$5,500,000
RD
UFA - 3
TOR
Andersen, Frederik
$5,000,000
G
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Muzzin, Jake
$4,000,000
LD
UFA - 1
TOR
Barrie, Tyson
$2,750,000
RD
UFA - 1
LAK
Campbell, Jack
$675,000
G
UFA - 1
TOR
Dermott, Travis
$863,333
LD
RFA - 1
TOR
Holl, Justin
$675,000
RD
UFA - 1
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
TOR
Marincin, Martin
$700,000
LD
UFA - 1
TOR
Clarkson, David
$5,250,000
RW
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Spezza, Jason
$700,000
C, RW
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Horton, Nathan
$5,300,000
RW
NMC NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Gauthier, Frédérik
$675,000
C
RFA - 1

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Oct 25 at 11:05
#1
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,554
Likes: 454
Looks like someone hit the vodka bottle and its gone too. Blues decline!
Oct 25 at 11:10
#2
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 138
Likes: 42
Quoting: Copenhagen
Looks like someone hit the vodka bottle and its gone too. Blues decline!


HAHAHAHAHA. I was about to comment saying how brutal the trade was for the Leafs, but your response takes the cake.
Blues decline? That is priceless
Oct 25 at 11:12
#3
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 138
Likes: 42
Quoting: Copenhagen
Looks like someone hit the vodka bottle and its gone too. Blues decline!


The trade doesn't really make sense for both teams, but value-wise, getting Matthews for those 2 assets alone is a steal
Oct 25 at 11:13
#4
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: MadLin27
HAHAHAHAHA. I was about to comment saying how brutal the trade was for the Leafs, but your response takes the cake.
Blues decline? That is priceless


So, to be clear, @Copenhagen believes this is a bad deal for the Blues and @Madlin27 believes this is a bad deal for the Leafs? Very interesting.
Oct 25 at 11:14
#5
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: MadLin27
The trade doesn't really make sense for both teams, but value-wise, getting Matthews for those 2 assets alone is a steal


I would make the argument that this deal makes a ton of sense for both teams especially and IF the Blues can resign Pietrangelo.
Oct 25 at 11:17
#6
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 452
You don't trade a young superstar like Matthews unless you're getting a better player back which the Leafs are not
Oct 25 at 11:18
#7
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 138
Likes: 42
Quoting: MG1986
I would make the argument that this deal makes a ton of sense for both teams especially and IF the Blues can resign Pietrangelo.


Yeah agreed, but those guys are fan favourites in St Louis.. They don't want to trade those guys. But yeah. Matthews is a superstar in exchange for 2 good players
Oct 25 at 11:21
#8
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: TheresAlwaysNextYear
You don't trade a young superstar like Matthews unless you're getting a better player back which the Leafs are not


Generally, that would be true, but I honestly believe the Leafs have enough "superstars", and at this point, I would consider Parayko a borderline top-pairing D. There is no doubt that he offers a significant upgrade beyond what the Leafs have right now, and what the Leafs could get in UFA (with their cap issues) or in a trade if they didn't want to deplete their prospect cupboard.
Oct 25 at 11:22
#9
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 281
Likes: 93
didnt you just win 4-1 tonight
Oct 25 at 11:23
#10
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: MadLin27
Yeah agreed, but those guys are fan favourites in St Louis.. They don't want to trade those guys. But yeah. Matthews is a superstar in exchange for 2 good players


Yep, fan favourites forsure, and I really love O'Reilly's game. That said, I would make the argument that the Blues GM Armstrong is one of the few GMs that I could see actually making this deal considering his history and reputation with trades.
Oct 25 at 11:24
#11
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: Tchuckycheese
didnt you just win 4-1 tonight


I don't understand the comment. The outlook of this deal is long-term, both in terms of this season, and playoff hockey, but beyond for cap-related issues, playing a more well-rounded style of hockey, etc.
Oct 25 at 11:24
#12
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,232
Likes: 732
I’d say add dermott and it’s a fair trade. Really interesting trade - it makes sense for both sides IMO. Leafs have a much better shot at winning the cup with oreilly and parayko than Matthews.
MisstheWhalers liked this.
Oct 25 at 11:25
#13
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,361
Likes: 1,222
Both O’Reilly and Parayko had a higher WAR than Matthews last year so at least in the short term the Blues get smoked. That being said, I can understand why the Leafs would say no considering it’s Matthews.
Jamiepo liked this.
Oct 25 at 11:26
#14
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 281
Likes: 93
Quoting: MG1986
I don't understand the comment. The outlook of this deal is long-term, both in terms of this season, and playoff hockey, but beyond for cap-related issues, playing a more well-rounded style of hockey, etc.


didnt you win tonight
Oct 25 at 11:28
#15
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: Isles777
I’d say add dermott and it’s a fair trade. Really interesting trade - it makes sense for both sides IMO. Leafs have a much better shot at winning the cup with oreilly and parayko than Matthews.


I appreciate your acknowledgment about the creativity of my proposed deal. I'd be hesitant to add Dermott, if, for no other reason, that the Leafs have control over him for a number of future season than some of their other D (Muzzin, Barrie, etc.). Perhaps there is an alternative to Dermott that doesn't include Rielly, Sandin or Liljigren?
Isles777 liked this.
Oct 25 at 11:29
#16
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: Tchuckycheese
didnt you win tonight


Maybe literally, but not emotionally :P
Tchuckycheese liked this.
Oct 25 at 11:32
#17
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: STLBlues17
Both O’Reilly and Parayko had a higher WAR than Matthews last year so at least in the short term the Blues get smoked. That being said, I can understand why the Leafs would say no considering it’s Matthews.


I would argue that the Blues would benefit greatly from a pure offensive superstar such as Matthews IF they were confident that they could find back-checking and defensive play from other areas of their roster. I don't think the Leafs would automatically say no. If I was the Leafs, and regardless of the "moving forward" mentality of the management group (or at least what they've said publicly), I would still be a little ticked off with him, not necessarily on what he did in Arizona that caused that issue, but how he dealt with it. Additionally, and I have no updated news or report to back that up beyond what Matthews says publicly, but I don't think the Leafs are happy with how he's called out the team.
Oct 25 at 11:38
#18
Isles777
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,232
Likes: 732
Quoting: MG1986
I appreciate your acknowledgment about the creativity of my proposed deal. I'd be hesitant to add Dermott, if, for no other reason, that the Leafs have control over him for a number of future season than some of their other D (Muzzin, Barrie, etc.). Perhaps there is an alternative to Dermott that doesn't include Rielly, Sandin or Liljigren?


If the trade happened right now, I would go with Reilly-parayko , muzzin-barrie, marincin holl. The first two pairings would eat up so much ice time that the 3rd really won’t have a large effect on the outcome of most games. Sandin steps in next season in place of muzzin. Oreillys line would be the line I would match up against other teams top lines because he’s elite defensively, allowing Tavares-marner to take advantage of lesser competition.

I think dermott is necessary or a LD prospect, but I wouldn’t give up sandin as he has more upside than dermott
Oct 25 at 11:41
#19
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,361
Likes: 1,222
Quoting: MG1986
I would argue that the Blues would benefit greatly from a pure offensive superstar such as Matthews IF they were confident that they could find back-checking and defensive play from other areas of their roster. I don't think the Leafs would automatically say no. If I was the Leafs, and regardless of the "moving forward" mentality of the management group (or at least what they've said publicly), I would still be a little ticked off with him, not necessarily on what he did in Arizona that caused that issue, but how he dealt with it. Additionally, and I have no updated news or report to back that up beyond what Matthews says publicly, but I don't think the Leafs are happy with how he's called out the team.


Still feels like a raw deal for the Blues. Sure it would be fun to have a player like Matthews, but I don’t think anyone’s arguing the Blues are a better team with him than they are with ROR and Parayko. It’s basically trading the 5th best center for like the 10th best center and the 12th best defenseman.
Capitalfail67 liked this.
Oct 25 at 11:45
#20
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: Isles777
If the trade happened right now, I would go with Reilly-parayko , muzzin-barrie, marincin holl. The first two pairings would eat up so much ice time that the 3rd really won’t have a large effect on the outcome of most games. Sandin steps in next season in place of muzzin. Oreillys line would be the line I would match up against other teams top lines because he’s elite defensively, allowing Tavares-marner to take advantage of lesser competition.

I think dermott is necessary or a LD prospect, but I wouldn’t give up sandin as he has more upside than dermott


Certainly an interesting take, at least for the rest of this season, assuming this happens sometime during the season. I don't like Marincin on principle, especially because he seems to constantly make the same mistakes, especially getting himself into penalty trouble. My concern would be next season. There is no way the Leafs can resign Mikheyev, Barrie and Muzzin, regardless of this deal, unless they were willing to part with a top-6 forward (other than Matthews). I think the Leafs would be more willing to give up, potentially, a conditional 1st round, IF that's what it took to get this deal done, if the Blues included a prospect, and Dermott was off the table. So for next year, assuming Muzzin was resigned, the D would be Rielly-Parayko, Muzzin-Dermott, Sandin-Liligren. That looks pretty good.

Everything that you've mentioned with respect to O'Reilly, I fully and wholeheartedly agree with. I would add that of interest to me would be O'Reilly playing with Johnsson and Kapanen, based on the fact that both aren't affraid (and Johnson more than Kapanen) to get a little physical and go into the corners, but also because of Kapanen's defensive work.
Oct 25 at 11:48
#21
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: STLBlues17
Still feels like a raw deal for the Blues. Sure it would be fun to have a player like Matthews, but I don’t think anyone’s arguing the Blues are a better team with him than they are with ROR and Parayko. It’s basically trading the 5th best center for like the 10th best center and the 12th best defenseman.


I hear you. I just wanted to propose something that I thought MIGHT benefit both teams, in different ways. And as for your ranking, and I know it's just an example, it would totally depend on how you were ranking the centre (is it based on overall play, pure offensive, possession, goals, etc.). Additionally, I would be very curious to see how Matthews and Tarasenko, as 2 dynamic goals scorers, would, or could interact, playing on the same line. You'd have to balance out the line with a third, more gritty and defensive player perhaps, but that would, presumably, be a dynamic duo. Thoughts on that?
STLBlues17 liked this.
Oct 25 at 11:58
#22
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,361
Likes: 1,222
Quoting: MG1986
I hear you. I just wanted to propose something that I thought MIGHT benefit both teams, in different ways. And as for your ranking, and I know it's just an example, it would totally depend on how you were ranking the centre (is it based on overall play, pure offensive, possession, goals, etc.). Additionally, I would be very curious to see how Matthews and Tarasenko, as 2 dynamic goals scorers, would, or could interact, playing on the same line. You'd have to balance out the line with a third, more gritty and defensive player perhaps, but that would, presumably, be a dynamic duo. Thoughts on that?


They’d be a lot more fun that’s for sure, but I’m almost positive they’d be worse. If you remove the Selke winner and Parayko who’s either the best or 2nd best defensive defenseman, you’re removing a lot of defense tha I don’t think is replaceable internally. They’d still have Dunn, Faulk, and Pietrangelo, but all three of those guys mostly provide offensive impact. And then Matthews, Schenn, Bozak down the middle is almost exclusively offense as well. It would be a fun experiment, but I don’t think it would work out.
Oct 26 at 12:03
#23
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 138
Likes: 42
You want to know how you know Matthews is good? The guy has 9 goals in 12 games and people are complaining that he isn't playing his best
Oct 26 at 12:04
#24
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: STLBlues17
They’d be a lot more fun that’s for sure, but I’m almost positive they’d be worse. If you remove the Selke winner and Parayko who’s either the best or 2nd best defensive defenseman, you’re removing a lot of defense tha I don’t think is replaceable internally. They’d still have Dunn, Faulk, and Pietrangelo, but all three of those guys mostly provide offensive impact. And then Matthews, Schenn, Bozak down the middle is almost exclusively offense as well. It would be a fun experiment, but I don’t think it would work out.


It's hard to offer feedback there, because I definitely do not watch St. Louis play much at all, so I am just relying on stats, recap vids of games, etc. I'd have to think though Schenn and Bozak and others like Thomas, Fabbri, Schwartz, have worked hard on their defensive game. At least, it sure looked like it in the playoffs last year. Here's an interesting note, @Isles777 mentioned that St. Louis would agree to the deal IF the Leafs included Dermott. Would that change your mind at all?
STLBlues17 liked this.
Oct 26 at 12:05
#25
Thread Starter
#LeafsFever
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 711
Quoting: MadLin27
You want to know how you know Matthews is good? The guy has 9 goals in 12 games and people are complaining that he isn't playing his best


That's not my complaint. In fact, I am not complaining at all, I am just trying to imagine a situation where the Leafs, as a whole, and as a team, is better, than that of the individual player (ie Matthews can do it alone and get goals, great, but can he stop another player from equalizing that production). My answer is no. So far in his career, Matthews has not proven that he can defend as at least a top-2 centre should be able to. And with Tavares out, that gets magnified, unfortunately.
 
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