That's not what a Dumba deal would look like. First, let's be clear that Tierney holds no value here other than making the cap work from a Wild perspective. Secondly, Thomson isn't of any interest. We have several RD prospects who can step into the NHL next season and help replace what we're losing in Dumba, we don't need that to be part of the return, and we don't want it to be either.

The return for a Dumba to Ottawa trade probably includes Pinto and a 1st, or something very similar, with an expiring cap dump to make salary work for Ottawa if needed.

Zucker returned Addison and a 1st, so any return for Dumba would need to be at least that valuable.

So this means you are 100% gaurenteed 1st overall?

So this means you are 100% gaurenteed 1st overall?

No idea how this happened

Don't know anything about Minnesota's needs. Tierney is a good 3C. I get no interest in Thomson. Our first will likely be top 3 so no chance of that. Pinto + 1st for Dumba is a ridiculous overpayment.
Dumba is a decent top 4 but he's below averagevdefensively. Plus he needs to be protected in the expansion draft so Minnesota loses him for nothing if he isn't traded.

That's not how the draft works. The lottery is only reflected in the first round. The other rounds are based on standings.

Ah no idea sorry

Your view is outdated, your offer is insufficient. We'll go ahead and keep Dumba AND protect him in the expansion draft. Thanks.

Pinto + Ottawa’s 2021 first > Addison + Pittsburgh’s 2021 first.... and that’s not even close. At all.

Your view is ridiculous. You want Shane Pinto (1C potential) and a top 5 pick for Matt Dumba LOL

Yeah that's my point. Dumba >>> Zucker and it's not even close. At all. So the return should be better.



I get not wanting to include your first. That makes sense for your team. But that means you need to make up value elsewhere.

But YOU made the thread, YOU want Dumba on your team, YOU recognize he's a top pairing D. Yet you made an insufficient offer, and when I explained the type of return the Wild are looking for, you started degrading the player you're asking for in an attempt to justify the lack of value. Dumba being below average defensively hasn't been true for years. You also tried to strong arm the conversation by saying the Wild would lose him for nothing (which isn't true), suggesting that we should accept your offer based on an incorrect assertion.

So fine, don't include your 1st, but Pinto would need to be there, along with something else. So what are you comfortable with that something else being?

Logan Brown and two 2nds isn't going to get it done either.

I changed the offer after your very first comment btw. I think you're overvaluing Dumba. He's good but he's not top pairing good. Advanced stats show he's below average defensively but excellent offensivley and on the powerplay:
https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressiveteep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4684d234-1e91-4d65-aa07-6a658633d0a3_383x394.png

If you protect Dumba you can protect 4 forwards. Parise and Zuccarello have NMCs. Greenway is a lock so you're going to lose Eriksson Ek, or Fiala. Personally I would trade Dumba and protect the forwards especially since as you said, "We have several RD prospects who can step into the NHL next season and help replace what we're losing in Dumba".

I don't think he is a top pairing defenceman outside of the minutes he plays. He is a good top 4 guy. He's been great this year. He would be Ottawa's second best defender for sure. But he is sheltered compared to Minnesota's other defencemen and gets very very favorable zone starts, which makes sense ofc cuz he's your best offensive D.

Based on the expansion coming up and losing a good forward if you protect Dumba, I think you should temper your expecrations if he is traded.

This is a perfect demonstration of why you need to look beyond stats.

If Dumba isn't moved, he'll be protected. Greenway will be the one exposed, Eriksson Ek and Fiala will be the other two forwards protected.

Dumba is more valuable than Greenway, which is why he's going to be protected over Greenway, even though we have RD's who can step in next season. And as soon as the expansion draft is over, Dumba's trade value goes back up, because no one else has to worry about protecting him in the ED.

He is a top pair defenseman, he's actually been the second best defenseman on the team this season.

If you don't want to offer up any kind of real value for him, that's fine, but we'll keep him, he'll be protected in the ED, and then, if necessary, he'll be moved after the ED.

So again, Pinto+ is the price. If you don't want to pay the price, that's fine, but you not wanting to pay the price doesn't mean the price goes down.

I'll take Greenway then LOL He's got 14 points in 18 games so far and has looked solid. Sign me up.

He's a top pairing Dman because what? The stats don't support that. His defensive play visually doesn't support that. He has the offence of a top pairing D but look at his production last season.
Again I think you're severely overvaluing him.

You've already proven you don't actually watch these players, you just look at stats. So why should I take anything you say about visual play seriously? Bringing up last season without acknowledging the context only further invalidates your argument.

You can keep saying you think I'm overvaluing him, but it doesn't mean you're correct, and it doesn't mean I should go with what YOU think his value is (especially given we've established you don't watch him, nor have any context surrounding the stats you're looking at).

I'm sorry that you feel that I'm overrating Dumba, but Tierney, Thomson, 2nd isn't a good offer for the Wild, and Brown, 2nd, 2nd isn't much better. You'd rather offer quantity over quality, and I get it, but Minnesota is looking for quality over quantity, and there are 29 (soon to be 30) other teams in the league to talk to. So regardless of what you want to offer and what you think you should be able to get him for, you're going to have to come to the table with an offer that works for Minnesota if you really want to land him. It's going to take something that hurts to give up.

I don’t think there’s any way that Pinto is switched out for Dumba, mostly because he’s a centre which is a position Ottawa needs even more than a RD. A trade would realistically need to start with another prospect just based on needs alone.

I think where you and @gavinray might not be seeing eye to eye is that you said Dumba is a top pairing D where Gavin said he’s top 4. He plays a top 4 role in Minnesota, not top pair and if he was in Ottawa he would be top pair by default and not necessarily by merit just because the RD is so barren rn.

I see Dumba as more of a top 4 than top pair RD but I can understand why you’d want to be paid for a top pair dman when that is where he would play in Ottawa. If you start the deal with almost any other prospect I think there’s a conversation to be had.

No, I think where we're not seeing eye to eye is that he'd rather give up expendable pieces, and the Wild aren't trading Dumba for expendable pieces.

I think the main takeaway here is that, if OP or anyone else wants Dumba, the offer is going to have to make the Wild want to trade Dumba. There's going to have to be at least one piece involved that makes the Wild feel good about trading Dumba. Otherwise, they'll keep him for themselves, or talk to one of the other 29 teams in the league.

Is logan brown a dud? I really don't know based on his draft position this would be a great offer but I really don't know what he is.

Let's clear something up right now. You're at the well but missing for lack of a bucket. What fans outside of Minnesota fail to realize is that Dumba absolutely is a top pairing defenseman, but because he's played on the second pairing with Brodin they think he's just a top four guy. That misconception is why Brodin is so underrated too. People see that they play as our 2nd pairing and automatically assume that's all they are.

Here's the newsflash. Here are our top pairing defenseman on the Wild's current roster. Brodin, Spurgeon, Dumba, Suter.

That's right, we have four top 2 guys in our top 4. Ever wonder why our defense is considered a top 5 defense? That's why. Any team that's in the top 5 are typically playing with 4 top 2's. The Wild are no different.

Furthermore, It's disingenuous to say Dumba is bad by purely by looking at his stats for the last two years. Why? Because he was never fully healthy. It wasn't until roughly the last couple of weeks before the shutdown last year that he was back to a full 100%, and has looked like his old self ever since then, if anything his defense has much improved over that timespan.

Up until this year, Dumba always had a nasty habit that if he wasn't scoring, his defense would become horrible, but it would become excellent if he was putting the puck into the net. That hasn't been the case this year, despite not being able to get the puck into the net much he's still ringing it off the post at a regular rate and still looks solid at both ends of the ice and like his old self when he's on a hotstreak.

As @Caerii correctly pointed out, he's been our second best defenseman this year. So no, don't confuse where he plays in our lineup with the idea that he isn't capable or doesn't merit a top pairing position, because you'd be wrong. And for the record, Dumba has played on our top pairing quite frequently throughout his time on our roster, whether as an in-game adjustment or to fill in for either Suter or Spurgeon. Whenever he has, he was always capable and always solid in the role.

Also for the record, our best defenseman just so happens to be Brodin, who also just so happens to play on our 2nd pairing with Dumba.

@Caerii is right, the ask for Dumba would be for either Norris or Pinto plus. That part is not up for debate, if your uncomfortable paying that then find a different defenseman to trade for because you won't get Dumba for anything less.

He's not worth Dumba, even with two 2nd's.

He's around the same tier as Khovanov or Khusnutdinov. So no.

He’s battled injuries his whole career but was amazing in the OHL and has excelled in the AHL the last couple years. This realistically should’ve been his first year in the NHL but Ottawa acquired so many veterans in the offseason that he got pushed out when he didn’t blow the doors down.

Bottom line is he’s a super talented 6’6 centre who’s only 22 and was an 11th overall pick if you care for pedigree. With Stepan most likely out the rest of the season he should be able to get a shot at finally proving himself so we’ll find out soon exactly what he is.

I don’t disagree that with two seconds he doesn’t equal Dumba but he should grade out ahead of Khovanov and Khusnutdinov. But I yes they’re probably in the same sort of tier.

By what metric? I just had this discussion with a Sens fan the other day. Don't get me wrong, I like Brown. I think he'll make it and will have a solid career. He intrigues me a little bit, and I wouldn't be surprised if Guerin might have some interest in him too.

But if we're going to compare those three prospects I'm not sure he comes out on top.

Between the three, Khovanov has the best scoring touch and playmaking skills, but has only average foot speed and his edgework isn't the best.

Khusnutdinov is a better playmaker than Brown but not quite as good as Khovanov. What he does have is lightning quick speed, and will probably be one of the fastest players in the NHL once he's in his prime. His ceiling is arguably the highest between all three. But he's a bit of a boom or bust candidate which tempers things a bit. Unless he hits.

What Brown has over the other two is strictly his size, and couple that with decent to good hands. What holds him back is his below average speed and poor skating skills. He is in a lot of ways a very similar player to Alex Galchenyuk in that regard. I wouldn't necessarily put him ahead of either Khovanov or Khusnutdinov.

Our GM ask for Dumba has always been a top 6c, or high 1at with top c prospect. So regarding the value, @Caerii is right. It's fact & reality an NHL GM in Guerin knows more about Dumba's value than you @gavinray