I never said the value didn't go up? I just said not to the point your stating.

Lou paid this price (I can only assume) because he knew he could resign him. Other teams don't have that luxury if they trade for Dubois (assuming he does in fact want to go to MTL in free agency).

I'm sure Horvat wasn't a rental and came with an extension, it just hasn't been announced yet.

No it didnt. Isles traded 2 busts and a 1st for Horvat. Isles gave up little to get a premier center. PLD doesnt have half the character of Horvat. You are supposed to overpay for a guy like Horvat. If that is overpaying and you are underpaying for PLD.

Temper your expectations.

Ratu ain't a bust he's 20 years old and only on the ups and beauvillier is a young guy that has been extremely snake bitten. Neither bust Dubois' value on the rise 😎

I think both Dubois and Horvat will want between 8 and 9M for 7-8 years so he's not cheaper. Both players are having career years so i'd say both player could regress.

Maybe Dubois is worth a bit more than Horvat because he's younger, but only if he's open to extend long term with more than one team. If not, he's got Trouba value.

As a rental he's cheaper his qo with 50% retained is more affordable (5.5m horvat vs 3.3m Dubois)

Dubois would be a rental only next year, and he's probably gonna have an AAV more than 6M then.

I don't think both players QO will have any affect on their next contract.

It's would he signs an qo at 6.6m then we trade him as a rental with no extension in place with retention to 3.3m that's worth more than what horvat got easy even without retaining

I don't think any team would give up that much for a rental. To me, if Horvat extend with the Islanders, then he wasn't a rental and they paid the price for long term.

Then, if Dubois will only extend with MTL, he's a rental for the 30 other teams and his value is a lot lower.

Yeah but the price nyi paid was a rental price they just want to resign him and was a team he wanted to negotiate with different all together just because a team can or wants to resign a guy doesn't mean they're not a rental. Look at kulak last year rental and had a fit so he stayed if they paid the increased price why isn't there a new contract already

I don't agree it's rental price, because no team would give a top prospect and a possible top 15 pick for a rental.

Kulak, on the other hand, was traded for a 2nd, a small price wether he extended or left after the season.

Lou waited more than 3 months before he announced he signed Parise as a UFA, even if everyone knew the contract was signed.

You're just wrong Dubois as a rental is worth more than horvat what'd not to understand he's young cheaper,contract, and the fact that more teams can fit him in causing the price to go up higher because more teams near the cap can go for Dubois at 3.3 rather than horvat at his cap see.

You literally can't use the argument that Lou paid the non rental price as there no indication that Vancouver allowed nyi to do a contract which would have occurred after the trade.

Respectful you are wrong thank you

I never said Dubois is worth less than Horvat as a rental. All i said is Horvat isn't a rental, while Dubois will be a rental IF rumors about MTL are true. Stop making up stuff i didn't say.

I don't think not retaining on Horvat lowered his value because Vancouver took Beauvillier contract.

You can't use the argument Horvat is a rental either because we don't know yet. I'm just assuming no team would pay that much for a rental. You think a team would.

Can't wait to see who's wrong.

But horvat is a rental there's a difference between a rental that you want to keep and paying a price for a guy with the condition on resigning

Example Tkachuk traded to Florida wasn't a rental as in that case Calgary signed him so the extra year could be added but also if he was traded there without any prior arrangement to sign that is the definition of a rental.

Just because a team wants or is able to resign a player doesn't mean they aren't a rental this just proves that they are a rental until they have the contract in place which obviously isn't. The price would have been different if a team was able to ensure horvat signing long term.

Beauviller is a gamble but he also has a nice chance to bounce back from a change of scenery type of a team and system. He has been not great this year but in the past has shown poise and clutch in big games. Also more offensive output could be unlocked with ice time and a more offensive system in Vancouver. He's not a negative asset per say but he's a guy that is a buy low for sure based on what he's shown in the playoffs in those runs and if they get that guy and unlock more offense could be a nice asset to flip next year.

You literally said that horvat and Dubois are the same value which is not true as you used the point of mtl. This doesn't track for the fact that a team trading for him would not have a contract in place (wow just like horvat) a team can want to keep him but a predetermined contract in place would affect what they would need to give up to get him.

I can use horvat as a rental because the whole trade for horvat is a 1 year deal as a ufa where he can test the market. The team can keep him but that doesn't change what the deal was at the time. This can be seen with even lower guys. Ex jets pay a 3rd for demelo for a playoff run and fits pretty good. They extend him. Does this change what the deal was at the time of the trade? No they just had a rental and basically kept him would the cost to aquire him increase if they wanted the extension to begin with? YES

To conclude this essay (lol) in this case you are assuming that because of price it isn't a rental but guess what it's not like horvat has an extension coming over in the deal or is required to sign one with the nyi. Will he sign there is a good possibility he can but that ultimately doesn't change the fact that a rental can have a variety of costs and with horvat I'd say he's a key piece to any run. This means that the cost to aquire him as a rental due to what he brings. Look at chariot boom 1st and a decent prospect and that seemed like a lot, they could have resigned but didn't so if he resigned is he not a rental because looking at it now, he was.

All in all to finally conclude this ted talk you are assuming it's too much for a guy that does everything and you are probably wrong on this due to the facts stated above. Boom

Took 5 days after the trade, including the all-star pause, to extend him. So let's say 48 to 72 hours negociations. Do you still think they traded for Horvat not knowing he would extend with them?

Jets fans might need to lower their expectations on the return a Dubois to MTL trade would bring. While Dubois is a more valuable player than Horvat in a vacuum, the situations of the buying teams are completely different. NYI brought in Horvat for a playoff push, MTL isn't making playoffs this season, and if management is being realistic they aren't making it next year either. Dubois is only under team control for one more season at this point, and that one season of having him doesn't outweigh having Dach for 4 more seasons (3 more on his current deal and 1 RFA), Barron for 5 (1 more ELC year and 4 RFA), plus the 2M in cap space next season and what is likely a top 16 pick.
MTL is incredible unlikely to pay more for Dubois than NYI payed for Horvat unless there is an extension in place. Unless the Jets can get a long term deal done with Dubois their best option is to trade him to a contender next season as a pending UFA, or use him as an own rental and just accept he might walk for nothing. MTL on the other hand is better of not wasting the assets and gambling on getting him as a UFA when bringing him in lines up better with them starting to work towards competing again. MTL is a bad partner for a Dubois trade at this point.

Just because of the circumstance a team is doesn't change his value lol Habs are rebuilding does that give them a better price on meier because oh were not making the playoffs so he's cheaper no

They traded for him as a rental and extended him that's the difference was the deal announced right away? No he could have easily said I want to see what other teams are interested. There was no guarantee in any case so the value represented that idea of yes they want to keep the player but he could also walk. It's almost like we're both right in this away where it's a mix of a rental and resign price as they may have got extra because they could sign him but also extra in the sense of the value with the first from a non playoff team in a great draft class.

Where did I say MTL would get a better price on Dubois? I stated quite clearly that MTL is a bad partner for a Dubois trade because they're unlikely to be willing to give up the value the Jets would like, because his value to MTL is likely lower than the value the NYI placed on Horvat. As for Meier, yeah I fully expect that if MTL made an offer it would be much lower than what a team expecting to make the playoffs this year and next would offer, and it would likely be lower than the Sharks would accept, meaning MTL is a bad partner for a Meier trade at this point as well.
The simple fact is that MTL's circumstance absolutely changes Dubois trade value in relation to them, and if the Jets don't think it's enough they should keep him or trade him to a team that will place a higher trade value on him.

NYI knew if he would extend and for how much before trading for him. No one would give a top prospect and a possible top 15 2023 1st for a rental.

Like i said, Dubois as a rental would be worth less than Horvat extended. A 1st and a decent prospect should be the best offer WPG get at next year TDL.

This is not the same there was no indication that he was willing to resign at the time of the trade which rules out that argument. What your saying is a late first and a b prospect gets it done which is ridiculous as a rental. You can think what you want on what a team is willing to give up for a rental but the whole basis of your message is YOU think it's too much for a rental which could be different for someone else's view. So basically because they gave up a lot it can't be a rental if I give up 4 first for Monahan this deadline is he not a rental because of the price I paid. Teams value players different and rental prices are up in the air. Minimum for Dubois is a top 15 pick or top prospect young nhl player and some sort of other prospect

So either
Top 15 pick 2 b prospects (could be replaced with pick) and a young roster player
Or
Top prospect first round pick b prospect and roster player
If they don't get that type of return then they can keep him for the deadline and retain and get a lot with the inflated prices at the deadline as any playoff team could fit him and would make them over the top. Talents like Dubois don't come available for trade often so based on pure scarcity his value is high.

Price to extend Horvat was known. Islanders traded for him knowing it. There's no extention possible with Dubois. And you still believe Jets are getting more for him than Horvat?

I said a decent prospect, not a b prospect. And maybe you get a top 15 pick if you send him to a team for their 1st and they miss the playoffs just like Chiarot and maybe Horvat.

That doesn't mean that he was confirmed to resign they took a gamble and it paid off just because the price was know doesn't change the fact that he could have said no. Also they're isn't anything said that Dubois can't be moved as a rental and resign literally is up to him. I just think he would be missing out on 2n plus if he limits himself to mtl. 9m in less tax state vs mtl. Tbh if Dubois isn't traded this summer to mtl I'd probably kiss the chances of getting him goodbye as he either gets extended with the team that does trade for him or gets a better contract as a ufa. Literally the whole mtl fan base is basing everything with Dubois on the whim that they can get him for a decent contract at ufa to not give up assets. They probably have to spend 10m plus tbh if he even makes it there. You do realize that a return like that for Dubois just isn't enough for what he brings right there's no value in a mid to late first which realistically becomes maybe a bottom 6 player and a prospect that is in the same boat. Yk rental prices aren't capped right? Dubois could get 4 1sts and still leave a team. The whole point is just because you think it's too much for a rental doesn't change the fact that it can be a rental. Teams can overpay for someone yk. So this whole bs it's too much makes no sense if every team wanted him and there was a bidding war knowing that he may not resign yk he'd Still get a lot just based on desire and scarcity. So all in all it's your opinion that it's too much not that it's a fact that rentals can't have that type of cost. So basically you're wrong here again lol 😁

So your argument on why MTL should pay a premium for a year and a half of Dubois, years that they won't be competitive even with him, is that once he is a UFA he may not want to play there? Even if they trade for him he could walk anyway, and he would have done nothing to help the team due to them being in the middle of a rebuild, while the trade would actively hurt them because of the lost assets. Also, none of that 'well they could just flip him next TDL' junk, there's way to much risk he wouldn't recoup the spent assets, he could get injured, his numbers likely drop from being on a rebuilding team, he could regress, etc.. Jets and Habs fans need to accept the fact that a Dubois trade to MTL isn't a good fit unless Dubois agrees to a long term extension.
Sorry for the edit. You brought up the tax difference, which is a factor, but MTL is one of the league's wealthier teams and can front load with bonuses, and more money early would mean more money for him to invest which would help offset the tax difference by a decent amount.

Oh i'm all about MTL trading for Dubois, but it wouldn't make sense for them to give more than rental price when Dubois made it as clear as possible he won't extend anywhere but MTL.

Last year, Giroux was as good a rental as you could get, and he got traded for a 1st, a 3rd and a decent prospect. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. Calling me wrong or smiley emojis won't change anything.

Like i said, i hope MTL trade for Dubois, but if MTL knows he's 100% coming in 2024, let's wait and see how WPG deals with that situation. I hope they do better than they did with Trouba, but i doubt it. It's basically the same situation.