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ODOG67

Leaf Fan for life
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Apr. 27, 2017
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Forum: Armchair-GMAug. 27, 2020 at 5:50 p.m.
Thread: Andersen Moves on
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>palhal</b></div><div>IMO the days of paying UFAs who are their contract, such a big % of the cap is over. Kings, and Sharks must regret signing Doughty, and Karlsson to those massive deals . Even upcoming UFAs Faulk and Vlasic look like poor deals . Good RFAs are now landing a bigger contracts as RFAs some virtually UFA money . Gotta think the UFAs will be squeezed.
I would like to know what teams, have the cap to land Pietrangelo if his pay demands are met. Sure can't be the Leafs unless they decimate their lineup.
And those trades in this post...c'mon. giving all that cap to Pittsburg and NJ gives up a first rounder for one year of Andersen....ain't happening</div></div>

Word now is STL is more likely to move Parayko and extend their captain. Andersen ius worth a first. Granted, NJD might wanna put conditions on the pick, ie an extension. They need goaltending from my POV . And hes a ginger so they wont miss Scnheider too badly.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 17, 2018 at 7:56 p.m.
Thread: Consorting With The Enemy
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>tomato43</b></div><div>I don't even know why we are talking about luke schenn. He has nothing to do with this trade. He never showed had the promise that Chabot has shown in his short pro career. Schenn was a mistake that should have never been elevated to the NHL so fast or picked so high in the draft.

Tomas Chabot is a bonifide Stud and was developed properly in the AHL and has elevated his game in the NHL and will be a as of this moment is a highly valued asset. Brady Tkachuk was a highly touted prospect just selected 4th overall. He is excelling in his so far short NHL career with 8 points in 8 games. He will most likely develop into a Nylander type player in the future. The Senators will likely end up in the bottom 7 of the league. There second rounder will be a high second rounder. The chances of getting an NHL player out of a late first round pick and a high second round pick are basically the same. You say the Sens getting an" unconditional first round" when they don't have one is somehow substantial. You seem to think the Toronto "unconditional first" has a chance at being a high pick. Its at bast going to be a 25-31 pick. it essentially has the same value as a high second round pick. Swapping a high second rounder for a low first rounder is of little benefit to the Sens. and on top of that you give Toronto an additional pick.

Jake Gardiner is a good defense man. The reality of the situation is he is 28 years old and a soon to be a costly free agent. Who will absolutely not stay with the senators. Why would they want a rental player when they are not going to be able to resign him if they wanted to, and wont need his services to compete in the playoffs this year. Throwing in jake into a trade has almost 0 net benefit for the sens in the long term. They could deal him again to a playoff team and get some good assets but why would they even need to do that they could just have traded chabot or tkachuk to another team and gotten more without the extra step of giving Toronto exactly what they need first. Why would they go out of there way to give toronto young cost effective future star players.

Let me break it down more simply since you seem to be a little slow.

Toronto Receives.

young stud 4th overall pick Tkachuk
young stud 21 yea old defense man Chabot
high second round pick
low second round pick


Ottawa gets
Star player Nylander
a slightly higher pick than there second they swapped for.

In the overall Ottawa doesn't even get Gardiner cause he walked out the door at the end of the season laughing at the moron who traded for him when they aren't a playoff team. The cheap as **** owner who lost Karlsson because he wouldn't pay him inst going to pay Gardiner what hes worth, and Gardiner inst going to through the latter half of his career playing for a dumpster fire.

As for the second trade why would SJ want Marleau? Are all the butterfly's in there stomach from there old franchise player coming back for one last lap going to be enough to make up for the cap space they don't have for an aging vet they don't need? Don't you think they might want that cap space for more important things like signing Karlsson to a big ******* contract. And you throw in Braun like hes some piece of trash and not a top 4 RD at a reasonable price for this year and the next. and why not give up there best prospect to while your at it, sure. its not like highly skilled rhd prospects aren't one of the most valuable assets around. (possible attitude issues aside). Ottawa couldn't get them to include him or any other good prospects into the trade for Erik Karlsson and you think you gonna get a a top 4 rhd and a top rhd prospect for a couple of seconds and Marleau?

We would probably have to send them the two seconds just to take on Marleaus contract.

put down the homer goggles and realize your proposal was garbage.</div></div>

It's actually comical that you can be so triggered over a hockey discussion. News flash, champ: there's no prize money for being the biggest douchebag of the day. So much for Cap 'friendly'.
The Schenn reference is indicative of one very critical factor: perceived organizational value. Now read slowly here: Schenn was also considered untouchable at the time, so calling any player untouchable after less than 100 games is about as stupid as calling a rookie with under ten games untouchable. That, and that alone, is my point. And, you helped me make it. Burke and co. were wrong about Schenn, because they could have traded him and their pick for OEL. Love KAdri, but a franchise D over a 3C all damn day.

It's not my intellectual obligation nor my intention to compare Schenn to Chabot in terms of skill . That's entirely irrelevant to the argument. In this case the conventions of logic dictate that the premise itself must be substantiated, being that the perceptions of both players' value to their respective clubs are /were similar. I have only pointed to the history which verifies as much. Declaring any player untouchable without a significant body of work to back it up is idiotic. Neither Chabot nor Brady Tkachuk have established anything close to untouchable status. Even the inept management of the Sens must realize that much. But by all means, go there at your own peril.

I've already conceded that the value of the picks could stand to be re-thought. However, Gardiner has tremendous value and OTT would absolutely be able to cash in closer to the deadline.
D-men are already dropping like flies this season and teams looking to contend would line up to trade for a 50-point+ offensive defenseman who can QB the power
play... do you not think there are at least ten teams who would give up a first and a prospect for Gardiner's services??? Seriously??? and in terms of his defense, he's been rock solid this year, but you'd have to watch a little hockey and actually know what youre looking at to make that determination. Clearly, you either havent or dont know what youre looking at. Hes been very responsible.



Even this week it has been discussed that Marleau may very well finish his career where it started, either and if Doug Wilson can get him for 5 M a year, and recapture some draft picks --clearly, you havent bothered to check, but they have no first this year or next, a FLA 2nd, a 3 and no 4th -- a transaction like that would help. Admittedly, I miscalculated re: salary as Mekley's money doesnt factor. My bad there. That said, adding a couple 2nd round picks helps them tremendously, and since a cup run could be in their grasp this year (they're tops in the Pacific) Marleau at 5M is an asset all day long if they can make the math work.

As far as Braun goes, a 4M dollar so-called top 4 D with 4 points at the quarter turn isn't an asset, he's a liability. Hes also 31 and he costs them 3.8 next year as well. That's not a good return for a defender on pace for well under 20 points on the year. Almost 4 million for a shot-blocker with a career PDO of 92 and you think he'll be missed? Disagree. I think SJS has the depth to cover those points and maybe even rgenerate a little more possession time.

Anyway, those are my closing arguments. I've admitted where my rationale was in need of improvement and made the only case I care to make. All youve proven is youre easily triggered, overly opinionated and not worth replying to any further.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 17, 2018 at 3:02 p.m.
Thread: I cant wait for this to happen just so we can stop talking about it
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Sicarius</b></div><div>Nylander isn’t signing for anything starting with a 7. Toronto is going to wind up trading him. They might want a top 4 RHD but you don’t always get what you want.</div></div>

<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Sicarius</b></div><div>Nylander isn’t signing for anything starting with a 7. Toronto is going to wind up trading him. They might want a top 4 RHD but you don’t always get what you want.</div></div>

Problem for Dubas is, he has to win this one to prevent getting skinned when Marner and Matthews' agent come to negotiate. If he doesnt absolutely clean up in terms of the return, he has to make the player sit for a year. The optics of doing otherwise are disastrous.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 17, 2018 at 2:59 p.m.
Thread: Consorting With The Enemy
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>SammyT_51</b></div><div>Burkes drafting was disgusting.. Schenn was never the level of talent Chabot is..

Tkachuk, Stone are better offensive players than Willy and are more valuable than Melander. Nylander IS most skilled but not the best offensive player in Ottawa.</div></div>

Burke drafted Kadri and Morgan Rielly. And a couple guys named Sedin, a guy named Kesler, and a few others. He also turned Schenn into JVR and Beachemin into Gardiner and Lupul.

And I'll say it once more: I am not comparing talent between Chabot and Schenn, I am comparing their perceived value to their respective organizations for the point of illustrating the stupidity of declaring anyone untouchable before theyve even played 100 games.

How do you figure Tkachuk, after 5 points in 8 games, is better than Nylander??

Stone is UFA after this dogshit season is over. You think he's taking a haitcut to play for Melnyk for the next 6-7 years???
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 17, 2018 at 2:37 p.m.
Thread: Consorting With The Enemy
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>SammyT_51</b></div><div>Im leafs fan as well but you are delusional about Nylanders value. Plus you are dealing with rival so the price would be hefty. Comparing Schenns start to Chabots is absolutely wrong. Chabot is great defender with a ton of value and is performing like he should perform with amount of talent he has. He gained weight, is better defensively and is certainly a threath for Norris in the early stages of season. He hasnt slowed down in 20 games which is a great indicator of this being what he should play like and not a lucky stretch.. also Karlsson wasnt traded because of performances so he was untouchable but was traded.. Nylander certainly is elite talent but hasnt proved he is elite player and that is a MASSIVE difference. He might but he isnt at the moment.

Gardiner is 50pt defender but he is also UFA and bad defensively which is why his value is closer (and lesser) to what Keith Yandle got back to Yotes when traded to NYR. Tkachuk is great player and performing insanely greatly in every aspect of game which makes him probably the most enthusiastic forward on Sens roster.. While Nylander is great player and Gardiner 50pt PP specialist offensive Dman and added 1st rounder to the deal this doesnt give you Chabot, Tkachuk and 2 2nds.. not to mention Sens having "no-trade-within-division policy" and Toronto is their fiercest rival..</div></div>



If you think I am comparing Chabot's production to Schenn's, you're misguided. I am comparing perceived values within the organization. Schenn was considered their top rookie talent, and their most talented defender, as indicated by Burke's refusal to trade him to move up in the draft. I get that he was attempting to move up because he wanted brother Brayden, but how do you look past OEL or Duchene or even Kane? A big skilled Western Canadian kid with all that truculence would make Burke salivate. Point is, he believed Schenn had the goods, after a similar sample size.

Re: Nylander, he'd be Ottawa's best offensive forward even if Duchene stayed, for the next 7 years. And that for me is where the discussion ends. Love Tkachuk, love Chabot's upside, but Nylander is the most skilled player in this discussion and he'd be a serious consideration for centre ice.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 17, 2018 at 2:26 p.m.
Thread: Consorting With The Enemy
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>t0mat0</b></div><div>You need medication. This proposal is atrocious. You should hang your head in shame for comparing Chabot and Schenn. Gardiner is a top pairing 50 point D who is a UFA next year. The Leafs first round pick probably has the same value as the Ottawa second rounder, and you go in an give Toronto another 2nd?

A cheap team like Ottawa isnt going to want an 8 million dollar player like Nylander putting up 60-80 points, when they could have a cheap cost controlled Tkachuk with future Nylander like potential.

Chabot &gt; Gardiner
Cheap Tkachuk &gt; Nylander
TOR 1st = OTT 2nd

Im not even going to mention your second trade proposal which is just as bad.</div></div>

You need to learn to discuss hypotheticals without becoming an ignorant punk. Take about 25% off the a$$hole antics dude.

How you conflate my comparing Schenn's status at the time with Chabot 2018 indicates that you're intellectually unprepared for rational conversation. At the time, Schenn was considered untouchable by Burke to the point that he refused to trade him to move up in the 2009 draft . And in case you were unaware, had he done so, he'd have had OEL, Kane, and maybe Hedman sitting in his lap. Schenn was considered a stud in his first season and jumped right into the NHL with ZERO TIME in the AHL. So much for early prognostications. Chabot looks really good, but youre an idiot if youre calling him untouchable less than 100 games into his career. You're practically anointing him heir to the Karlsson throne (another one-time untouchable) after one respectable 63 game season and one hot start. And Youre grossly underselling the impact of Nylander. He's a game-breaker and analysts around the league concur, he's a hair below Pastrnak at present. The one concession I'll make could be with regards to the 2 2nd round picks.

The 2nd trade sends multiple assets to SJS including Marleau at 5 M for a year and a half. They LOVE Marleau there still, and would gladly welcome him back at a discount for a 3.8 M defender who isnt putiing up points and a prospect with notably questionable attitudes. He could be nothing more than Anthony Esposito, Kyle Beach , Nikita Filatov or any other first rounder you care to name who flamed out at or before at the NHL level. And here you are valuing him above a future hall of famer who could dance through half the Sens lineup at the age of 39. Take a bow.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 15, 2018 at 10:30 p.m.
Thread: NYLANDER to COL Landslide Win
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>CMac66</b></div><div>I really think the Leafs are getting killed here. They should not have to trade their 1st round pick for the package they got. Maybe if Makar was included. Zadorov is ok but Gardiner is certainly better and Nylander is definitely better than Jost</div></div>

Thanks for weighing in. Here's why I disagree: as much as Nylander has little to no leverage in terms of an extension, Dubas has precious little

of the same when the tables are turned and we are talking about a trade. Historically speaking, and as Don waddell iterated today on TSN 1050 this morning, it's pretty difficult to get full market-value when youre forced to trade an impact guy. So on that basis, if TOR lands a 6'5" shutdown guy who has top PK skill, plus a top 6 cost-controlled former 10th overall forward who can line up at any position, you call it a win, because you've just shed a BOATLOAD of cap and you avoid the squeeze when you need to lock up Matthews and Marner to MASSIVE deals next summer. Summary: youre trading for top end talent you can afford, a shutdown piece you desperately need and cap space to avoid the pending crunch. Perfect outcome? Nope. Something that you can live with that actually helps you going forward? I think so.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 14, 2018 at 7:41 p.m.
Thread: Welcome Home Hammer
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Caniac2000</b></div><div>Canes laugh at this, I'm sorry. You want a D man who is a god in the offensive zone for RFA? Then you want Gauthier too? No, Nylander doesn't have the valyue of Dougie and the second rounder isn't enough to make up the difference. I love Jeremy Bracco but he doesn't make this trade even close to worth it, minimum your looking at Kadri thrown into this deal too, maybe more (if you take the pick and Bracco out)</div></div>

I give your comment half a star, mainly for spelling. Content, not so much. That RFA can be signed to a seven year deal for approx 7.5 and lead your team in scoring for the next 6 years or so. Hammer is UFA in 2 years after this one. That's not an ideal 1-for-1 scenario and since CAR is a motivated suitor with excellent depth on the back end, it's not exactly a buyer's market and they'll need to out-bid a few teams to land the big fish. If I'm Dubas I'm looking for a big body with skill to add to my talent pool . I realize Gauthier and Hammer is an overpay, so a b-level prospect and a 2nd isnt exactly paying peanuts. The idea of Pesce for Nylander makes me twitch. Not even close for a guy who will end up being a 75-80point top line talent.
Forum: Armchair-GMNov. 14, 2018 at 7:36 p.m.
Thread: Welcome Home Hammer
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>Listen to what Bob McKenzie said about Nylander signing on Nov 30th. The Leafs are one of the few teams that can actually sign him. A 7 million deal would see this year's cap hit, push close to 10 million and rest of the years being around 6.7. They are all waiting for closer to Nov 30</div></div>

<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>Listen to what Bob McKenzie said about Nylander signing on Nov 30th. The Leafs are one of the few teams that can actually sign him. A 7 million deal would see this year's cap hit, push close to 10 million and rest of the years being around 6.7. They are all waiting for closer to Nov 30</div></div>

even if that were to happen, they would still have 39-40 sheets a year committed to four players and a hole in their top 2 D pairings unless you think Dermott is the answer and Hainsey ends up deserving an extension. Nobody seems to be talking about what that right side looks like next year. Gardiner is costing you 7x7 and that forces Rielly to the right side. Not an ideal pairing as theyre both puck rushers who like to jump into the rush.

Even in a perfect world with Nylander agreeing to 7x8, they are cash strapped with gaping holes on the back end going forward.