Wow that is horrible for Ducks. Kapanen and 2nd would likely get declined but at least it’s closer in value,

Ducks pass. You can’t trade a 4th liner and an average d prospect for a top pairing rhd man. Exactly what you are complaining about you just did. I’m sure duck fans are tired of people giving them garbage returns for there young talented defensemen. They could get way more for him.

Leaf fans hate when they get average trade value for nylander who wants to be grossly overpaid. But they turn around and make a trade that would barely get you Brooks orpik for a young rhd stud. I don’t get it.

Here is a question that needs to be answered well for me to even begin to believe anyone on here has a clue what they are talking about.

The consensus value of Nylander from a contractual basis, appears to be in the mid 6 millions. I'd wager that anything under 8 would very quickly still look like a great deal because Nylander's upside is very high. Manson's contract is 4.1. Pesce's contract is under 4. Chris Tanev 4+. My point here is these are all more defensive defenseman and none of them are worth more than they are getting for what they contribute.

So if the hardest thing to do in hockey is create offense, why is the player that contributes that worth less in a trade than a guy who's better than average at preventing offense but doesn't contribute any himself?

"The Leafs would have to send Nylander plus for Pesce". Every fan on here seems to think that a right handed defenceman is worth more than Nylander. Contracts alone say that is not the case, point contributions say that isn't the case, players upsides say that isn't the case.

My point is right handed defensive defenceman are not all stars, they are good players to have but they don't put butts in the seats and they don't win games.

Hey Leaf fans remember when we got Komisarek who was the best right handed defensive defenseman available? How did he do?

They don’t want to pay him like he’s PPG fw like he wants but they sure want a return like he is. Lol. Nature of being a fan. It’s not just Leaf fans.

Manson for Nylander would be a loss for the Ducks.

I purposely made a trade that isn't the best. I did this because I want to stress a point. Playing on the top pair and being a top pairing defenceman are not the same thing in all cases. Hainsey is a top pairing defenceman currently, but no one in their right mind would call him that. Josh Manson may play on the top pair in Anahiem but he's not a top pairing defenceman. Fowler or Lindholm are far better than Manson. Manson would play on several top pairs but he isn't an elite defenceman. Same goes for most of the guys fans are trading to the Leafs for Nylander.

If teams could get huge returns for their defenceman why is no one trading defenceman?

I think the reason we aren't seeing these trades is because GM's understand what fans just don't. Defenceman are completely overpriced. Paying a kings ransom for someone who puts up 30 points a year makes about as much sense and paying a 4th line grinder huge money because you need that physicality. (That is not directly aimed at you or Tom Wilson, just making a point about wasting money on stuff that can be found for far less)

I am not saying he is a top pairing defenseman, and I am not sure many people are. With that said, he is a young defender, on a very reasonable contract with term. He also plays big minutes and plays a style of game the Leafs don't really have on their back end at the moment. He also skates pretty well for the kind of player he is. Josh Manson clocks in at 23:00 minutes of average ice time per game. To put that in perspective, only Morgan Reilly clocks in at more than 22 minutes ATOI (22:30), and Manson plays as part of defensive unit that features both Lindholm, Montour and Fowler. He may not be a top pairing guy, but he's the kind of defenseman the Leafs need. Oh, and he kills penalties. Leafs currently have Hainsey out on our primary PK unit. Also, if the Leafs deal with Ducks, they will likely need to take back additional cap space. Ritchie's $1.45 million AAV won't cut it to a team hinging on LTIR relief at the moment.

If it was a defensemans job to put up points they’d just put forwards there.

Manson is one of the most underrated defenders in the game. He's young, on a steal of a contract and he's also locked up for multiple years. There's nothing that the Leafs would be willing to give the ducks that would make it a fair deal.

"... they are good players to have but they don't put butts in the seats..."

So let me get this straight; how many people come to the games = a player's ability? This might be the worst take I've ever seen.

I understand your sentiment, but I don't understand why every half decent defenceman is now an allstar who gets you 22 year old highly skilled players who have big upsides. Manson is 27, he's on the back end of his prime and he's never really accomplished much. His career high in points is a meager 37 points.

The hardest thing to do in the NHL is score, that is why people who score more, get paid more. How much money does the best defensive defenceman get paid? Keep in mind that a defensive defenceman is a guy who plays a lot of minutes but scores around 30 points or less.

So now tell me why Pesce, Manson, Tanev, and others like these players don't get paid more than 4.5 million? Is it because they aren't worth more than the contracts they are on? If that is the case (Which it totally is), then how are they worth players who will get paid more because they can do the hardest thing in the sport better than most others.

This doesn't even get close to Manson, you're doing exactly what you complained about, we don't need spare pieces for a top pair defenceman, Manson isn't the source of our cap issues, the Perry and Kesler contracts are the biggest offenders, if we're trying to solve cap issues guys like Cogs and Eaves are most likely to get traded imo, Any deal with Manson going to Toronto would probably start Kap +

That's another issue that I have with how people look at situations like this. Fans look at the past couple of seasons and say "you're a 60 point winger, you don't deserve close to as much money as you think." That's somewhat fair but try to look at it from the point of view of the player. He is saying, yes I'm a 60 point winger, but I believe in myself and if I am going to sign long term, I'd like to get paid what I feel like I will be contributing. He thinks he can be a point a game player and to be honest, I don't think that's even that unlikely. He's going to have a tonne of high level talent to play with and he's super talented on his own. So its not like he's been a 60 point winger for 7 years and wants to get paid like an elite player. He hasn't even hit his prime yet.

Bad deal for the Ducks. Johnsson has regressed badly and could get sent to the Marlies any second. Leafs would have to package a 1st ,Brown + just to get the Ducks on the phone.

Then why isn't Manson an allstar defenseman making 9 million a season? Why is the accepted value for Nylander's contract over 2/3rds higher than Manson's contract? Why do defensive defenceman get paid less than offensive players? There is no logic in that assumption. If Manson is a better player than Nylander, he'd make more.

You do realize that hockey isnt all about scoring right? Manson is a shutdown DFD who skates well, plays very tough minutes, and can play the PK. He's a top 15 NHL dman on a steal of a contract. The Leafs, or any team, would wet themselves over having chance to pick him up.

Fair, but why then are teams clamouring for fast skating puck movers for the back end? Also why do forwards who score get paid more than defensive defenceman?

Bobby Ryan makes more the Sasha Barkov. According to your logic that makes Ryan better than Barkov.

The point is clearly missing you completely. What I am saying is this. If defensive defenseman are so valuable, why do they all make way less than offensively gifted players? How does trade value work on completely different parameters than contract negotiations?

If Brett Pesce was RFA right now and said he wanted 8.5 million dollars, who in their right mind would pay that? Who would pay 6.5 million for Pesce?

Just because scoring is at a premium doesn't mean DFD are any less valuable, the package you suggested gets you 3rd pair defenceman not top pair Ds

Bobby Ryan is a bad contract for a player that looked like he was going to be a star after scoring 4 straight 30+ goal seasons. This is a poor example, you aren't stupid and you understand there are outliers in everything and bad contracts are just that.

Manson is not the guy that goes out and gets you points, that's not the role he's suited for. He's a great DFD and Anaheim suffers when he's not on the ice. He has a great shot against impact when he's on the ice as teams tend to get -1 excess shots per hour from in between the faceoff dots (high danger area) during the time that Manson is on the ice. You can't say that just because he only has a career high of 37 pts that he isn't worth what Anaheim is giving him. He's worth more than 4.1

Let's not be hasty. Orpik's not going anywhere. Top three in playoff hits, blocks, and plus/minus? Fifteenth in primary assists by a defenseman and ted for 1st in SCF GWG? Earning just 1M? Not for Johnsson, Holl, and a 1st. Back to back, baby!

I mean, since Orpik's injured...maybe for Gauthier and Ozhiganov.



Defensive defensemen do seem to play on winning teams, but (a) the stats on measuring defense are still weak, and experts still make mistakes and (b) Manson and Pesce, relative to other RHD their age, are very, very good at offense, so your question does not apply. We've discussed this.

If Nylander at 7M were a good gamble, the Leafs would sign him, and trade him next summer, after he scores 30 goals. If it doesn't work, they can just trade Marner.

Whew. Glad that's solved.

I wouldn't even pay a 1st for Manson, well maybe just a 1st, but not a player plus a first. Manson is a good defenseman but there is no guarantee that he'd be as good in a different system or with different partners. The point of this is more to figure out why people are so nuts for defensive defenseman right now.