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Do the Avs make a move for Forward Depth using their 1st as bait

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Nov. 19, 2018 at 11:07 a.m.
#1
Still a Leafs Fan
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How serious of a team are they if they really want to make a push this year or hold out for further reinforcements
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Nov. 19, 2018 at 11:18 a.m.
#2
Emotionally in 2018
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Given the pool of prospects that they have, it may make sense to move their own first in exchange for a forward. I think Zuccarello could be a good fit if he's willing to stick around, and if NYR was willing to move Kreider, I think he'd be an even better option.

However, their pool of prospects isn't extremely deep up front. I think they'd like to hold onto both picks, but if they get a good deal that comes along, they'll jump the gun. But it's not an all-in situation, as they're set up for success for a long time.
Nov. 19, 2018 at 8:05 p.m.
#3
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They desperately need some forward depth if they want to make a run this year.
Nov. 19, 2018 at 8:31 p.m.
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I really think they should either trade for or offer sheet Nylander.
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Nov. 20, 2018 at 5:27 p.m.
#5
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Quoting: hockey_fan_101
I really think they should either trade for or offer sheet Nylander.


I agree completely! Submit an offer sheet at $7M. They'd have to offer compensation of a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round draft picks. That's a lot, but they'd be getting a top six Forward w/ all star potential. TOR is clearly in a real bind. Someone should step up and hold them accountable. The only possible concern is that someone might retaliate and offer sheet Rantanen. But, COL will have the cap space to re-sign Rantanen so they can mitigate his exposure to such tactics.
Nov. 20, 2018 at 5:33 p.m.
#6
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: Brian2016
I agree completely! Submit an offer sheet at $7M. They'd have to offer compensation of a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round draft picks. That's a lot, but they'd be getting a top six Forward w/ all star potential. TOR is clearly in a real bind. Someone should step up and hold them accountable. The only possible concern is that someone might retaliate and offer sheet Rantanen. But, COL will have the cap space to re-sign Rantanen so they can mitigate his exposure to such tactics.


But an offer sheet has to be signed by the player to have any meaning.. Certainly the Leafs would match any offer sheet at about 7m. And no the Leafs aren't in a bind at all. Why? The question for Nylander would he want 7m for about five years or does he continue to negotiate with the Leafs, hoping for a more better deal short term, or long term.
Nov. 20, 2018 at 11:20 p.m.
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Quoting: palhal
But an offer sheet has to be signed by the player to have any meaning.. Certainly the Leafs would match any offer sheet at about 7m. And no the Leafs aren't in a bind at all. Why? The question for Nylander would he want 7m for about five years or does he continue to negotiate with the Leafs, hoping for a more better deal short term, or long term.


How can they possibly match the offer sheet if its for more than one season? They'll have to pay Matthews and Marner next season-probably over $20M combined. The numbers don't favor a situation where the Leafs can keep everyone, especially w/ Kapanen breaking out. And even if they had the cap space, don't you think they'd be better off spending what's left on another Defenseman?
Nov. 20, 2018 at 11:35 p.m.
#8
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Quoting: Brian2016
How can they possibly match the offer sheet if its for more than one season? They'll have to pay Matthews and Marner next season-probably over $20M combined. The numbers don't favor a situation where the Leafs can keep everyone, especially w/ Kapanen breaking out. And even if they had the cap space, don't you think they'd be better off spending what's left on another Defenseman?


????? I don't think you understand contracts and offer sheets. The Leafs have cap to sign Nylander this season....and a contract that extends into the following seasons. Now next summer if the Leafs find they don't have cap due to the Matthews, Marner and Kapanen...yep some player....and it well could be Nylander could be traded. But if Nylander is signed to a reasonable contract, he's an easy trade. I just don't understand why folks seem to see think the Leafs are so cap strapped. There are other teams worse off than the Leafs with bad contracts, and NTC and NMCs. Leafs have little money in bad contracts. Again if the Leafs need cap space for any reason, they do have the ability to make trades. And Nylander is being in his RFA is not entitled to any NTC or NMC clauses. So what's the issue? Now it's bigger issue for the Leafs (or any team) if Nylander was signed to what would be perceived as an inflated contract. Then he's a cap drag and that team and a more difficult trade.
Maybe the Leafs can't keep everybody. Gee, most teams can't. And the signing of Tavares sure made the the Leafs a different looking team.
Look at like this in 2019/20. If Tavares had not been signed. The Leafs would have Nylander at 7m and 4m to spend on another player. With Tavares and 11m contract. The Leafs can trade Nylander for picks or cheap ELCs and dont't have 4m to spend. That's still a good deal for the Leafs.
And if you suggest that the Nylander is traded for what ever for cap reasons, including getting a Dman, yep that's a possibility. But really it doesn't have much to do with a offer sheet this year for Nylander.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 1:17 a.m.
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Quoting: palhal
????? I don't think you understand contracts and offer sheets. The Leafs have cap to sign Nylander this season....and a contract that extends into the following seasons. Now next summer if the Leafs find they don't have cap due to the Matthews, Marner and Kapanen...yep some player....and it well could be Nylander could be traded. But if Nylander is signed to a reasonable contract, he's an easy trade. I just don't understand why folks seem to see think the Leafs are so cap strapped. There are other teams worse off than the Leafs with bad contracts, and NTC and NMCs. Leafs have little money in bad contracts. Again if the Leafs need cap space for any reason, they do have the ability to make trades. And Nylander is being in his RFA is not entitled to any NTC or NMC clauses. So what's the issue? Now it's bigger issue for the Leafs (or any team) if Nylander was signed to what would be perceived as an inflated contract. Then he's a cap drag and that team and a more difficult trade.
Maybe the Leafs can't keep everybody. Gee, most teams can't. And the signing of Tavares sure made the the Leafs a different looking team.
Look at like this in 2019/20. If Tavares had not been signed. The Leafs would have Nylander at 7m and 4m to spend on another player. With Tavares and 11m contract. The Leafs can trade Nylander for picks or cheap ELCs and dont't have 4m to spend. That's still a good deal for the Leafs.
And if you suggest that the Nylander is traded for what ever for cap reasons, including getting a Dman, yep that's a possibility. But really it doesn't have much to do with a offer sheet this year for Nylander.


Nylander an easy trade??? There's been nothing easy about this whole situation. TOR is clearly backed into a corner here. Every other GM knows that if Nylander won't sign by dec. 1st at a team friendly level, they can leverage the crap out of Dubas b/c TOR can't waste this season when they have. chance to win the cup w/o Nylander.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 1:21 a.m.
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Quoting: Brian2016
Nylander an easy trade??? There's been nothing easy about this whole situation. TOR is clearly backed into a corner here. Every other GM knows that if Nylander won't sign by dec. 1st at a team friendly level, they can leverage the crap out of Dubas b/c TOR can't waste this season when they have. chance to win the cup w/o Nylander.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 1:21 a.m.
#11
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Quoting: palhal
????? I don't think you understand contracts and offer sheets. The Leafs have cap to sign Nylander this season....and a contract that extends into the following seasons. Now next summer if the Leafs find they don't have cap due to the Matthews, Marner and Kapanen...yep some player....and it well could be Nylander could be traded. But if Nylander is signed to a reasonable contract, he's an easy trade. I just don't understand why folks seem to see think the Leafs are so cap strapped. There are other teams worse off than the Leafs with bad contracts, and NTC and NMCs. Leafs have little money in bad contracts. Again if the Leafs need cap space for any reason, they do have the ability to make trades. And Nylander is being in his RFA is not entitled to any NTC or NMC clauses. So what's the issue? Now it's bigger issue for the Leafs (or any team) if Nylander was signed to what would be perceived as an inflated contract. Then he's a cap drag and that team and a more difficult trade.
Maybe the Leafs can't keep everybody. Gee, most teams can't. And the signing of Tavares sure made the the Leafs a different looking team.
Look at like this in 2019/20. If Tavares had not been signed. The Leafs would have Nylander at 7m and 4m to spend on another player. With Tavares and 11m contract. The Leafs can trade Nylander for picks or cheap ELCs and dont't have 4m to spend. That's still a good deal for the Leafs.
And if you suggest that the Nylander is traded for what ever for cap reasons, including getting a Dman, yep that's a possibility. But really it doesn't have much to do with a offer sheet this year for Nylander.



I think you're placing too high a value on Nylander. His value is only relative to how badly TOR needs him in order to compete for the Cup. There's no way no chance Dubas pays him over $7M on a long term deal. They can't keep Matthews and Marner at over $20M combined if they do. It's about prioritizing needs right now and they can already score enough. They need balance and defensive depth more than another 60-65 point Winger right now. It's a numbers game.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 2:32 a.m.
#12
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Quoting: palhal
????? I don't think you understand contracts and offer sheets. The Leafs have cap to sign Nylander this season....and a contract that extends into the following seasons. Now next summer if the Leafs find they don't have cap due to the Matthews, Marner and Kapanen...yep some player....and it well could be Nylander could be traded. But if Nylander is signed to a reasonable contract, he's an easy trade. I just don't understand why folks seem to see think the Leafs are so cap strapped. There are other teams worse off than the Leafs with bad contracts, and NTC and NMCs. Leafs have little money in bad contracts. Again if the Leafs need cap space for any reason, they do have the ability to make trades. And Nylander is being in his RFA is not entitled to any NTC or NMC clauses. So what's the issue? Now it's bigger issue for the Leafs (or any team) if Nylander was signed to what would be perceived as an inflated contract. Then he's a cap drag and that team and a more difficult trade.
Maybe the Leafs can't keep everybody. Gee, most teams can't. And the signing of Tavares sure made the the Leafs a different looking team.
Look at like this in 2019/20. If Tavares had not been signed. The Leafs would have Nylander at 7m and 4m to spend on another player. With Tavares and 11m contract. The Leafs can trade Nylander for picks or cheap ELCs and dont't have 4m to spend. That's still a good deal for the Leafs.
And if you suggest that the Nylander is traded for what ever for cap reasons, including getting a Dman, yep that's a possibility. But really it doesn't have much to do with a offer sheet this year for Nylander.


You may be totally right though. I really don't know what's gonna happen. The only thing I know for sure is that in 9 days Nylander will either be on the Leafs roster, traded for a Defenseman, or sitting out the season. I never thought it would take this long and I've always felt that player agents have too much influence over the entire UFA/RFA process. Ritchie and ANA were at a standoff over what probably amounted to a couple hundred grand per season...Silly.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 6:44 a.m.
#13
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: Brian2016
I think you're placing too high a value on Nylander. His value is only relative to how badly TOR needs him in order to compete for the Cup. There's no way no chance Dubas pays him over $7M on a long term deal. They can't keep Matthews and Marner at over $20M combined if they do. It's about prioritizing needs right now and they can already score enough. They need balance and defensive depth more than another 60-65 point Winger right now. It's a numbers game.


You're right in your last post. I'm amazed that Nylander and Leafs haven't been able to get together on a contract. Certainly you think there is one term and salary that would have been agreeable. 1500 other NHL/AHLers have contracts....so there is a precedent on what he is worth. After this season, Nylander is still under Leafs NHL control for four years. So if there is any trade, I'm sure this is what the Leafs and their trading partner will base his value on. But no team wants to trade for "rights", they want a signed player, since no team wants to either overpay in salary or have a continued non playing Nylander.
Here's what I think will happen. Nylander signs a contract with Leafs next week, and I'm guessing short term. Maybe two years. Second option. He doesn't play in the NHL this season, cause the Leafs aren't going to trade him this season, because he isn't been signed by any team either. My value on Nylander on a contract is about 6.5m. Leafs could generous on a short term deal and pay him 6m so Nylander isn't getting "cheated" out of money. But anything over 7m, I don't see the Leafs or any team wanting to pay him that.
Yesterday I made an Armchair Leaf Team next year with Nylander signed long term and playing centre and Matthews being offered sheeted which the Leafs didn't match. That could be a reality too.
I'll disagree with an earlier statement where the Leafs are backed into a corner. I don't think they are. Leafs have been winning without Matthews and Nylander, and if they have no Nylander so be it. That additional cap space without Nylander can be used to obtain a Dman lately in the seasons. And Kapanen has been proved quite capable as a replacement for Nylander. If nothing else, and Nylander doesn't play this year just look at him as a LTIR for the season.
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Nov. 21, 2018 at 11:19 a.m.
#14
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Quoting: palhal
You're right in your last post. I'm amazed that Nylander and Leafs haven't been able to get together on a contract. Certainly you think there is one term and salary that would have been agreeable. 1500 other NHL/AHLers have contracts....so there is a precedent on what he is worth. After this season, Nylander is still under Leafs NHL control for four years. So if there is any trade, I'm sure this is what the Leafs and their trading partner will base his value on. But no team wants to trade for "rights", they want a signed player, since no team wants to either overpay in salary or have a continued non playing Nylander.
Here's what I think will happen. Nylander signs a contract with Leafs next week, and I'm guessing short term. Maybe two years. Second option. He doesn't play in the NHL this season, cause the Leafs aren't going to trade him this season, because he isn't been signed by any team either. My value on Nylander on a contract is about 6.5m. Leafs could generous on a short term deal and pay him 6m so Nylander isn't getting "cheated" out of money. But anything over 7m, I don't see the Leafs or any team wanting to pay him that.
Yesterday I made an Armchair Leaf Team next year with Nylander signed long term and playing centre and Matthews being offered sheeted which the Leafs didn't match. That could be a reality too.
I'll disagree with an earlier statement where the Leafs are backed into a corner. I don't think they are. Leafs have been winning without Matthews and Nylander, and if they have no Nylander so be it. That additional cap space without Nylander can be used to obtain a Dman lately in the seasons. And Kapanen has been proved quite capable as a replacement for Nylander. If nothing else, and Nylander doesn't play this year just look at him as a LTIR for the season.


Assume that everything you just said is true; Where does Nylander get the idea that he should be paid such an outrageous amount of money? Why does he think he's worth as much as $8.5M AAV on a long term contract? Like you said, there are about "1500 NHL/AHL players currently under contract. Leon Draisaitl is an all star caliber player; He's not a comp for Nylander at $8.5M. I think Nylander is afraid that if he signs for let's say, for the sake of the argument, $6M AAV and Marner signs for around $9M AAV, he'll feel cheated. I don't get it.

Pastrnak is NOT a comp for Nylander. Pastrnak is a super star and he signed for 6 years w/ am AAV of $6.66M after a 34G 70 point season in 2016-17. Nylander put up 22G and 61 points last season and he's a year older than Pastrnak was when he signed his deal. After researching all of the available data, I've concluded that Nylander's contract value on a long term deal should not exceed $6M in AAV. I like $5.75 for 8 years. That number seems fair for both sides and could allow TOR to keep him long term or trade him for a Defenseman of comparable value.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 12:43 p.m.
#15
WentWughes
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It may be my personal opinion, but I would never trade a 1st round pick in any situation unless you are getting a quality top 6 forward for the long term. trading a 1st round pick for a guy who will play bottom 6 for one year is a very bad move, regardless if you win the cup or not.
Nov. 21, 2018 at 1:04 p.m.
#16
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Quoting: Brian2016
Assume that everything you just said is true; Where does Nylander get the idea that he should be paid such an outrageous amount of money? Why does he think he's worth as much as $8.5M AAV on a long term contract? Like you said, there are about "1500 NHL/AHL players currently under contract. Leon Draisaitl is an all star caliber player; He's not a comp for Nylander at $8.5M. I think Nylander is afraid that if he signs for let's say, for the sake of the argument, $6M AAV and Marner signs for around $9M AAV, he'll feel cheated. I don't get it.

Pastrnak is NOT a comp for Nylander. Pastrnak is a super star and he signed for 6 years w/ am AAV of $6.66M after a 34G 70 point season in 2016-17. Nylander put up 22G and 61 points last season and he's a year older than Pastrnak was when he signed his deal. After researching all of the available data, I've concluded that Nylander's contract value on a long term deal should not exceed $6M in AAV. I like $5.75 for 8 years. That number seems fair for both sides and could allow TOR to keep him long term or trade him for a Defenseman of comparable value.


You cant use an absolute steal of a contract (Pastrnak) as a comparable. If Pastrnak originally signed a bridge deal and had to be resigned right now he would probably be making $8.5M+.

Thats like saying Roman Josi's $4M AAV deal should have been a comparable for Ryan Ellis, OEL, etc.

Just because Pastrnak is underpaid because he signed a bad contract doesnt mean Nylander should sign a bad contract too.
 
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