Forums/Armchair-GM

Other Leaf fans really need the proper perspective

Created by: Bc44
Initial Creation Date: Nov. 22, 2020
Published: Nov. 22, 2020
Team: 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs
Team Explanation
The leafs will be working the waiver wire several times this season. The opening night bottom six could and likely will change in the first month of the season as the Leafs are expecting to lose one or two of that fwd group.

The real reason for this post is about mikko lehtonen. All of the sudden some leaf fans have him as a good NHL dman that will for sure be in the top 6. He hasnt played an NHL game yet. The KHL is a dam good league and Lehtonnen is a point a game player and sittin top 5 in dman scoring. The perspective that some leafs fans need is igor ozhiganov is 11th. Lehtonnen is clearly a better player then Ozhiganov but the khl top defence list is full of #6 #7#8 NHL experience defenceman.

Leaf fans are the kings and queens of putting unreachable expectations on players. Career 20 goal scorer is asked to score 30 by leaf fans.
Buyouts
  • Mikhail Grabovski: $0
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Phil Kessel: $1,200,000 (15%)
Buried
  • Pierre Engvall: $175,000 ($1,250,000)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2021
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2023
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
22$81,500,000$81,599,741$0$0-$99,741
Left WingCenterRight Wing
TOR
Hyman, Zach
$2,250,000
LW, RW
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Matthews, Auston
$11,640,250
C
UFA - 4
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
$10,903,000
RW
UFA - 5
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
$1,645,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
TOR
Tavares, John
$11,000,000
C
NMC
UFA - 5
TOR
Nylander, William
$6,962,366
RW, LW
UFA - 4
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
$3,500,000
C, LW
UFA - 3
TOR
Thornton, Joe
$700,000
C, LW
NMC
UFA - 1
TOR
Vesey, Jimmy
$900,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
TOR
Simmonds, Wayne
$1,500,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Spezza, Jason
$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
TOR
Anderson, Joey
$750,000
RW
RFA - 3
TOR
Boyd, Travis
$700,000
C, RW
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
$5,000,000
LD
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Brodie, TJ
$5,000,000
RD
NMC
UFA - 4
TOR
Campbell, Jack
$1,650,000
G
UFA - 2
TOR
Muzzin, Jake
$5,625,000
LD
NMC
UFA - 4
TOR
Holl, Justin
$2,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 3
TOR
Andersen, Frederik
$5,000,000
G
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Dermott, Travis
$874,125
LD/RD
RFA - 1
TOR
Bogosian, Zach
$1,000,000
RD
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Lehtonen, Mikko
$925,000
LD
UFA - 1

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Nov. 22, 2020 at 7:52 a.m.
#1
GM Hockeysaurus Rex
Joined: Jul. 2016
Posts: 14,148
Likes: 5,736
Mikko Lehtonen is 3rd pairing D with PP potential. he is not saviour on defense. He is a somewhat usable offensive piece for 3rd pairing.
Laquille liked this.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 10:58 a.m.
#2
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 9,211
Likes: 3,226
Every time someone does a post like this, they're telling on themselves for just hating on leafs fans and having zero awareness of literally every other fanbase
palhal liked this.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 10:59 a.m.
#3
LongtimeLeafsufferer
Joined: Jul. 2015
Posts: 40,875
Likes: 12,375
Virtually all teams have their 5,6,7,8 Dmen....as fairly interchangeable. It's players that step up and play "beyond their contract", that really propel teams.
I don't really understand the hate on this site for the Leaf Dmen. Reilly, Muzzin and Brodie are good NHLers. Dermot and Holl are capabler NHLers. Finding the next couple...where it's Lehtonen Bogosian, Sandin, Liljegren, or Marincin to be capable over the season is the challenge. (most teams have the same challenge)
Ridding themselves of the Leafs two worse Dmen last season, Barrie and Ceci has to improve the team.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 11:18 a.m.
#4
Joined: Jul. 2019
Posts: 3,389
Likes: 1,628
I think you need to have some perspective about our 3rd pairing.

Right now the 2nd most successful russian free agent import defensemen ever is Nikita Zaitsev. At league minimum he'd still be competing for a spot on the Leafs. Expecting more out of Lehtonen than Zaitsev isn't unreasonable and if he is more, he would all but be guaranteed a spot on the 3rd pair.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:09 p.m.
#5
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 21,344
Likes: 11,227
Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Every time someone does a post like this, they're telling on themselves for just hating on leafs fans and having zero awareness of literally every other fanbase


Quoting: palhal
Virtually all teams have their 5,6,7,8 Dmen....as fairly interchangeable. It's players that step up and play "beyond their contract", that really propel teams.
I don't really understand the hate on this site for the Leaf Dmen. Reilly, Muzzin and Brodie are good NHLers. Dermot and Holl are capabler NHLers. Finding the next couple...where it's Lehtonen Bogosian, Sandin, Liljegren, or Marincin to be capable over the season is the challenge. (most teams have the same challenge)
Ridding themselves of the Leafs two worse Dmen last season, Barrie and Ceci has to improve the team.


Quoting: Byrr
I think you need to have some perspective about our 3rd pairing.

Right now the 2nd most successful russian free agent import defensemen ever is Nikita Zaitsev. At league minimum he'd still be competing for a spot on the Leafs. Expecting more out of Lehtonen than Zaitsev isn't unreasonable and if he is more, he would all but be guaranteed a spot on the 3rd pair.


With respect, I think all three of you are missing the point of this post. I believe that all that the OP is trying to say is that Leafs Nation shouldn't be expecting Lehtonen to be the next Niklas Lidstrom, and he has the impression that's just how a majority of you are treating him. I don't read the OP as trying to say anything more.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:20 p.m.
#6
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 9,211
Likes: 3,226
Quoting: OldNYIfan
With respect, I think all three of you are missing the point of this post. I believe that all that the OP is trying to say is that Leafs Nation shouldn't be expecting Lehtonen to be the next Niklas Lidstrom, and he has the impression that's just how a majority of you are treating him. I don't read the OP as trying to say anything more.


with respect, if the OP wanted to make that point he could do it without digging at the Leafs fanbase for no reason. It's such a tired and lazy trope.
drewjenkins liked this.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:23 p.m.
#7
Joined: Aug. 2020
Posts: 749
Likes: 289
I haven’t seen a sing agm on this site that has him any higher than the 3rd pair. Idk what unreachable expectations have been placed on him. I think he will be fighting for a bottom pair spot with dermott. He signed with the leafs because he expected to be given a chance to play and I think in a recent interview he said he expects to make the lineup.

You bring up ozhiganov and zaitsev. They’re not the best players but they were both brought in by the leafs and both were given opportunities to play in the top 6, I expect lehtonen to be given the same.
OldNYIfan and drewjenkins liked this.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:28 p.m.
#8
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 21,344
Likes: 11,227
Quoting: JaredOfLondon
with respect, if the OP wanted to make that point he could do it without digging at the Leafs fanbase for no reason. It's such a tired and lazy trope.


If you'll notice, the title reads "OTHER Leaf fans," and the first reference in the Team Explanation is to "SOME leaf fans." I don't think that he intended at all to refer to ALL Leafs fans or the entire Leaf fan base, and as a complete outsider with no axe to grind, I think you're being a little too over-sensitive in reacting to criticism of some of your fellow Toronto adherents as criticism of all of you.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:29 p.m.
#9
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 21,344
Likes: 11,227
Quoting: CeciGOAT
I haven’t seen a sing agm on this site that has him any higher than the 3rd pair. Idk what unreachable expectations have been placed on him. I think he will be fighting for a bottom pair spot with dermott. He signed with the leafs because he expected to be given a chance to play and I think in a recent interview he said he expects to make the lineup.

You bring up ozhiganov and zaitsev. They’re not the best players but they were both brought in by the leafs and both were given opportunities to play in the top 6, I expect lehtonen to be given the same.


Very accurate, but for the record, I've seen quite a few TOronto ACGM's placing Lehtonen at #2 RD.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:35 p.m.
#10
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 9,211
Likes: 3,226
Quoting: OldNYIfan
If you'll notice, the title reads "OTHER Leaf fans," and the first reference in the Team Explanation is to "SOME leaf fans." I don't think that he intended at all to refer to ALL Leafs fans or the entire Leaf fan base, and as a complete outsider with no axe to grind, I think you're being a little too over-sensitive in reacting to criticism of some of your fellow Toronto adherents as criticism of all of you.


the last line in the description is literally "Leaf fans are the kings and queens of putting unreachable expectations on players. Career 20 goal scorer is asked to score 30 by leaf fans."
no some, no other, just leafs fans. Dude is literally using this as an excuse to go after the fanbase as a whole, It's pretty funny how pointing out that all fan bases do this is always "over-sensitive" to people who arnt leafs fans, almost like they are over-sensitive to being lumped in with fans who say dumb things
drewjenkins liked this.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:37 p.m.
#11
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 9,211
Likes: 3,226
Quoting: OldNYIfan
Very accurate, but for the record, I've seen quite a few TOronto ACGM's placing Lehtonen at #2 RD.


it's pretty funny how saying the guy might be the 4th best defender on the leafs is 'hopeful" but any thread about Minny and Kaprizov being a top line winger is a proven fact and he's worth 10 first rounders in any trade etc etc etc
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:52 p.m.
#12
Joined: Aug. 2020
Posts: 749
Likes: 289
Quoting: OldNYIfan
Very accurate, but for the record, I've seen quite a few TOronto ACGM's placing Lehtonen at #2 RD.


I don’t think he’ll start there or that he’ll even finish there. However he would have to beat Justin holl for that spot so I wouldn’t say it’s a pipe dream lol.
OldNYIfan liked this.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 3:58 p.m.
#13
First NY Then LA
Joined: Jun. 2018
Posts: 21,344
Likes: 11,227
Quoting: JaredOfLondon
it's pretty funny how saying the guy might be the 4th best defender on the leafs is 'hopeful" but any thread about Minny and Kaprizov being a top line winger is a proven fact and he's worth 10 first rounders in any trade etc etc etc


Well, if you think that's responsive to anything I've said here, okay . . . but once again, I think you're generalizing to the whole.
Nov. 22, 2020 at 4:04 p.m.
#14
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 9,211
Likes: 3,226
Quoting: OldNYIfan
Well, if you think that's responsive to anything I've said here, okay . . . but once again, I think you're generalizing to the whole.


generalising the whole, funny that, eh?
Nov. 22, 2020 at 5:25 p.m.
#15
Joined: Mar. 2017
Posts: 888
Likes: 535
"The perspective that Leafs fans need is Igor Ozhiganov is 11th KHL in scoring.
Lehtonen is clearly a better player then Ozhiganov but the KHL top defense list is full of #6 #7#8 NHL experience defenseman"


Here is some perspective for you:

Ozhiganov had 2 goals and 9 points in 47 KHL games before signing with the Leafs (0.19 points per game)
Lehtonen had 18 goals and 53 points in 66 KHL games before signing with the Leafs (0.80 points per game)

I don't know if a points comparison was the best way to make your case?

Especially when Lehtonen currently has 17 points (8 goals) in 17 games (1.00 points per game).
While Ozhiganov is nowhere close with13 points (3 goals) in 22 games (0.59 points per game).

And Ozhiagnov has clearly improved since he played for the Leafs.
Cool story though.
Nov. 24, 2020 at 1:36 p.m.
#16
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 107
Likes: 32
Edited Nov. 24, 2020 at 1:42 p.m.
Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Every time someone does a post like this, they're telling on themselves for just hating on leafs fans and having zero awareness of literally every other fanbase


Im a Leafs fan and i am the original poster. U have completely misunderstood my post.
Nov. 24, 2020 at 1:54 p.m.
#17
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 107
Likes: 32
Quoting: drewjenkins
"The perspective that Leafs fans need is Igor Ozhiganov is 11th KHL in scoring.
Lehtonen is clearly a better player then Ozhiganov but the KHL top defense list is full of #6 #7#8 NHL experience defenseman"


Here is some perspective for you:

Ozhiganov had 2 goals and 9 points in 47 KHL games before signing with the Leafs (0.19 points per game)
Lehtonen had 18 goals and 53 points in 66 KHL games before signing with the Leafs (0.80 points per game)

I don't know if a points comparison was the best way to make your case?

Especially when Lehtonen currently has 17 points (8 goals) in 17 games (1.00 points per game).
While Ozhiganov is nowhere close with13 points (3 goals) in 22 games (0.59 points per game).

And Ozhiagnov has clearly improved since he played for the Leafs.
Cool story though.


U have completely misunderstood my OP. I was manly giving perspective on what other recognized names with NHL experience are the best dman in the KHL. For historical context only, in order to tamper expectations as i see people posting that his KHL pt totals actually have NHL potential. As a leafs fan i hope hes a stud but historically these guys are fringe NHL players. Just for ur own curiosity look up darren dietz KHL dman played with the habs and ask as i do why no nhl team had interest in him but they have interest in lehtonen.
Nov. 24, 2020 at 2:30 p.m.
#18
Joined: Mar. 2017
Posts: 888
Likes: 535
Quoting: Bc44
U have completely misunderstood my OP. I was manly giving perspective on what other recognized names with NHL experience are the best dman in the KHL. For historical context only, in order to tamper expectations as i see people posting that his KHL pt totals actually have NHL potential. As a leafs fan i hope hes a stud but historically these guys are fringe NHL players. Just for ur own curiosity look up darren dietz KHL dman played with the habs and ask as i do why no nhl team had interest in him but they have interest in lehtonen.


So you saw someone with a bad take in the comments and decided to make an Armchair GM to respond to the whole fanbase instead or just him?

I personally haven't heard anyone say (or write) that Lehtonen will be a top-4 defensemen this year.

But he definitely looks better then Zaitsev / Ozhiganov did before they came to Toronto.
Nov. 24, 2020 at 4:33 p.m.
#19
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep. 2019
Posts: 107
Likes: 32
Quoting: drewjenkins
So you saw someone with a bad take in the comments and decided to make an Armchair GM to respond to the whole fanbase instead or just him?

I personally haven't heard anyone say (or write) that Lehtonen will be a top-4 defensemen this year.

But he definitely looks better then Zaitsev / Ozhiganov did before they came to Toronto.


I have seen it several times on social media and in conversations so i wanted to post this take and get peoples opions on it. Im not telling any educated long time leaf fans anything new when i say as fans we have been the kings of putting unreachable expectations on players over the past 15 years. This post was just being fair to a player that hasnt played an NHL game yet. By the responders on this post its nice to see that most agree with me in saying lehtonen is a 6th 7th 8th dman.

U seem upset i went after my own fan base. Im saying that as a longtime fan backed with facts that the fan base fooled by the organization in some cases has historically put unreachable expectations on players.
Jason Blake nik antropov luke shenn dion phaneuf mark bell mike komsarek david clarkson niklas hagman lee stempniak jeff finger kris versteeg colb armstrong tim connolly. I can go on. This was a huge problem in the past with leaf fans overvaluing their players. If u dont agree with this i dont no what team u have been following or ur just not old enough to remember the brutal years when this went on and on and on
 
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