Over paying for 4th defencemen from buffalo and josh manson are about as in the box as you can get for a leafs agm

Well in agm you are overpaying or underpaying. Jokiharju can move up a pair if there is an injury and psyk is good as extra player. Good dman and can play forward. Very versatile. Moving mrazek is the big one in that deal. Opening up cap space next year to sign Campbell. Manson gives us a shutdown pair once again as I believe Muzzin has losts left if he doesn't have to be constantly worried about covering up for Holl

Josh Manson hasnt been a good shut down defenceman in years, and Muzzin would be covering for him the way fowler and Lindholm have to now. He's not an upgrade on Holl and neither of the buffalo guys are upgrades either.
And as far as the cap goes, now you have to find a good back up, replace manson, replace Pysyk and re-sign campbell.

As an Anaheim guy, I've said before that it doesn't make sense to me for Toronto to trade Holl for Manson. Even if that's an upgrade (and you can see from other responses that an appreciable segment of the Maple Leafs fan base doesn't think so), it's merely an incremental improvement. If you want to upgrade the defense, add, don't just exchange.

My theory is irrelevant in this case anyway, as even the most optimistic of us Anaheim guys wouldn't ask for more than the two forwards and the future second. And we'd still get howls from north of the border.

Correct. It’s kind of funny because we’ve all been pretty chill on Manson. None of us expect a haul, and recognize that if they’re in a playoff spot, someone will have to slightly overpay for him.

The best part is that Manson has Toronto on his NTC, so every time I see one of these now, and the back and forth between leafs fans of “he sucks!” And “no, he’s the shutdown dman we need!!!!”, I get to chuckle, because he doesn’t even want to go there.

Pretty content to keep him. Even without trading him he benefits the development of a guy like Drysdale, by taking a lot of the hard minutes.

Now, if we could trade Dallas Eakins, I’d be all over that.

Agreed. It’s basically Robertson for Joker, a 2nd for Psysk and Andy, then a 3rd and Dermott to eat Ritchie and Mrazek. Close enough, but you can probably do better for eating those contracts, especially from a division rival, and more importantly, if the cap stays flat.

Buffalo wouldn't have any interest in this. We are bleeding for right shot d, and here we give up 2 and get none back (whether Dermott, who is left handed- can play both sides or not). We have several young wingers here or on the way- tuch, olofsson. Krebs, Quinn, peterka, and probably at least one of Thompson and/or mittelstadt. We need high quality centers and right shot d. We also need a goalie, who can be picked up on the cheap in the off-season. There's no good reason to take on cap dumps, move out players we need, and not address a need just to do the leafs a solid.

I agree, especially spelled out like this, the value is fine, but the fit is awful.

Even IF the values are close….
it still gives us back a bunch of stuff we just don’t want IMO

Jokiharju has been a steady influence paired with Dahlin, which has allowed him to take a LEAP forward this season
He’s basically untouchable, just for that
But also bc we have ZERO other RH defensemen signed for next season
And that’s also why we are probably unlikely to trade Pysyk
He’s been decent for us & I'm fairly certain we will try to keep him around to pair with Samuelsson next season
*MAYBE Dermott would be of interest if we can’t keep Pysyk or find someone we’d like better

What we actually NEED is to find a top4 RH defenseman to pair with Owen Power for next year,
and ABSOLUTELY NOT to trade one away (Jokiharju)
Finding just one good one will be hard enough
And we don’t need to risk the progress of Dahlin, or the development curve of Power, by having to try & find TWO good RH guys
That would just be dumb of us

Robertson is a prospect we just don’t need
He hasn’t shown much at all in the AHL, and we currently have young guys who are looking MUCH better (Quinn, Krebs, Peterka…. & even a few others)

Late 2nd & 3rd round picks have little value to us as well
And guys like Ritchie & Mrazek have none as well
Can’t imagine we’d want either

I’m not saying all the pieces being sent to us are total crap
But they just aren’t AT ALL what we’d be looking for
And none of them would come even remotely close enough to move the needle for Jokiharju

I'm baffled as to how Manson is getting a huge return and Joki is getting a pile of useless assets. Sabres biggest needs are goaltending and RHD. In that trade you take 2 of our RHD and our starting goalie and give us a 3rd pairing LHD, a goalie, a healthy scratch, a constantly injured prospect, and a 2nd + 3rd. The trade does not make sense for Buffalo.

Manson is a UFA and has not been good this year. He will not be returning 2 very good prospects and a 2nd

Buffalo pass, we can't trade Jokiharju given our RD depth, we probably only trade Jokiharju if another RD returns to Buffalo.