Forums/Armchair-GM

WE DONT WANT LUCIC but maybe we can help

Created by: ThatGuy
Initial Creation Date: Mar 21, 2019
Published: Mar 21, 2019 at 10:47 am
Team: 2018-19 Ottawa Senators
Team Explanation
Since every single EDM AGM on here includes a Lucic trade to Ottawa, let me jump on the wagon a suggest an alternative.

1) it helps EDM caps situation;
2) It doesn't take away a roster spot from an OTT rookie who's trying to develop

Best of both world
Trades
OTT
  1. Lucic, Milan
  2. 2020 1st round pick (EDM)
Additional Details:
Top 10 protected
EDM
  1. 2020 2nd round pick (DAL)
OTT
  1. 2020 3rd round pick (EDM)
EDM
  1. Lucic, Milan ($3,000,000 retained)
Buyouts
  • Alexandre Burrows: $2,500,000
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Milan Lucic: $3,000,000 (57.14%)
  • Dion Phaneuf: $1,750,000 (25%)
Buried
  • Mike Condon: $1,375,000 ($2,400,000)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2019
CBJ
OTT
FLA
PIT
OTT
OTT
OTT
2020
OTT
SJS
EDM
OTT
CBJ
OTT
CBJ
EDM
OTT
OTT
SJS
STL
OTT
2021
OTT
OTT
CBJ
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
OTT
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
22$79,500,000$63,390,000$0$3,962,500$16,110,000
Left WingCenterRight Wing
OTT
Tkachuk, Brady
$925,000
LW, C
RFA - 3
OTT
Tierney, Chris
$2,937,500
C
RFA - 2
OTT
Veronneau, Max
$925,000
RW
RFA - 2
OTT
Duclair, Anthony
$650,000
LW, RW
RFA - 1
OTT
White, Colin
$925,000
RW, C
UFA - 1
OTT
Ryan, Bobby
$7,250,000
RW, LW
NMC NTC
UFA - 4
OTT
Boedker, Mikkel
$4,000,000
LW, RW
UFA - 2
OTT
Pageau, Jean-Gabriel
$3,100,000
C
UFA - 2
OTT
Balcers, Rūdolfs
$759,167
RW, LW
RFA - 2
OTT
Smith, Zack
$3,250,000
LW, C
NTC
UFA - 3
OTT
Lindberg, Oscar
$1,700,000
LW, C
UFA - 1
OTT
Pääjärvi, Magnus
$900,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
OTT
Chabot, Thomas
$863,333
LD
UFA - 2
OTT
DeMelo, Dylan
$900,000
RD
UFA - 2
OTT
Anderson, Craig
$4,750,000
G
NTC
UFA - 2
OTT
Wolanin, Christian
$925,000
LD
RFA - 1
OTT
Ceci, Cody
$4,300,000
RD
UFA - 1
OTT
Nilsson, Anders
$2,500,000
G
UFA - 1
OTT
Borowiecki, Mark
$1,200,000
LD
UFA - 2
OTT
Jaros, Christian
$755,000
RD
RFA - 2
ScratchesInjured Reserve (IR)Long Term IR (LTIR)
OTT
Harpur, Ben
$725,000
LD
RFA - 2
OTT
MacArthur, Clarke
$4,650,000
LW
NTC
UFA - 2
OTT
Gibbons, Brian
$1,000,000
C, RW, LW
UFA - 1
OTT
Gáborík, Marián
$4,875,000
RW
UFA - 3

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Mar 21, 2019 at 10:49
#1
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 645
This looks like cap circumvention to me, I think the league would step in and stop this.
ThatGuy, dzad96, Shibbal18 and 2 others liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 10:51
#2
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 17,116
Likes: 4,609
Quoting: staytru20
This looks like cap circumvention to me, I think the league would step in and stop this.


Yep.
Shibbal18 liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 10:54
#3
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 574
Quoting: staytru20
This looks like cap circumvention to me, I think the league would step in and stop this.


Lol it's definitely a grey area but I don't think the league can do anything. There isn't an explicitly written rule against trading a player back and forth.

That being said, i can see this trade triggering a rule change lol
Mar 21, 2019 at 10:56
#4
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 574
Quoting: F50marco
Yep.


What's the difference with Washington trading Orpik to Colorado for them to buy him out so that they can sign him at a cheaper cap hit??
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:01
#5
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 645
Quoting: ThatGuy
What's the difference with Washington trading Orpik to Colorado for them to buy him out so that they can sign him at a cheaper cap hit??


Big difference in the fact that the Caps didn't specifically do this to bring Orpik back. Also, Orpik could have signed with any team he wanted after being bought out (other than the Avs), he just so happened to prefer playing for the Caps. The Caps also took a diminished value for Grubauer coming off of a really good season. I believe CAR was offering a 1st for him.

COL was also trying to trade Orpik prior to buying him out, so it wasn't a straight "hey, we'll trade you Grubauer if you take Orpik, buy him out, and we'll sign him again"
Ryminister_27 and Shibbal18 liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:02
#6
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 574
Quoting: staytru20
Big difference in the fact that the Caps didn't specifically do this to bring Orpik back. Also, Orpik could have signed with any team he wanted after being bought out (other than the Avs), he just so happened to prefer playing for the Caps. The Caps also took a diminished value for Grubauer coming off of a really good season. I believe CAR was offering a 1st for him.

COL was also trying to trade Orpik prior to buying him out, so it wasn't a straight "hey, we'll trade you Grubauer if you take Orpik, buy him out, and we'll sign him again"


Don't be Naive.

1) Everyone knew that Colorado was going to buy him out;
2) Everyone knew that Orpiks wanted to play in Washington;

DO you REALLY think Washington never thought Orpik would become available ???

What if you spread the Lucic trade a couple of weeks? And Lucic was full NMC so technically he can choose where we want to go as well. It's essentially the same scenario
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:05
#7
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 645
Quoting: ThatGuy
Don't be Naive.


Not being naive - that's why I said it wasn't a straight "buy out Orpik so we can sign him again". The NHL cleared this trade and determined no cap circumvention. It was back-alley enough that it didn't generate enough clear "collusion". This trade would be clear collusion and cap circumvention.
Shibbal18 liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:06
#8
Shibbal18
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9,964
Likes: 2,259
Quoting: ThatGuy
What's the difference with Washington trading Orpik to Colorado for them to buy him out so that they can sign him at a cheaper cap hit??


Colorado didnt trade him right back before the season started with retained salary. He was a UFA and free to sign anywhere
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:07
#9
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
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Likes: 574
Quoting: staytru20
Not being naive - that's why I said it wasn't a straight "buy out Orpik so we can sign him again". The NHL cleared this trade and determined no cap circumvention. It was back-alley enough that it didn't generate enough clear "collusion". This trade would be clear collusion and cap circumvention.


I Edited my answer.
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:08
#10
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
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Likes: 574
Quoting: Shibbal18
Colorado didnt trade him right back before the season started with retained salary. He was a UFA and free to sign anywhere


1) Lucic has a full NMC and can choose to go anywhere
2) What if the trade was spread-out a couple of weeks ?
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:09
#11
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 17,116
Likes: 4,609
Quoting: ThatGuy
What's the difference with Washington trading Orpik to Colorado for them to buy him out so that they can sign him at a cheaper cap hit??


Wasn't Orpik bought out? If Otttawa buys out Lucic and then Lucic signs with the Oilers again, i think technically that is ok. Even though I have a feeling the NHL might have only "allowed" the Orpik deal because he was an over 35+ vet and the Caps just came off a cup, etc. By most people opinion it was cap circumvention even though there is no clause in the CBA against it specifically.
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:11
#12
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,419
Likes: 1,224
Quoting: ThatGuy
Don't be Naive.

1) Everyone knew that Colorado was going to buy him out;
2) Everyone knew that Orpiks wanted to play in Washington;

DO you REALLY think Washington never thought Orpik would become available ???

What if you spread the Lucic trade a couple of weeks? And Lucic was full NMC so technically he can choose where we want to go as well. It's essentially the same scenario


The league guarantees steps in and stops a trade back to Edmonton at half retained salary. It's clear circumvention (not to mention that I don't think Edmonton would want him back).

The difference is exactly what's been said. Orpik has the chance to sign anywhere and could've signed somewhere for more. Washington didn't make it obvious that it was clearly their intent to sign Orpik again, but it was their intent to move his salary to free up space. Something like that had never been done before in the cap era. Now that it has, once the league sees its even possible for it to happen again they'll stop it. They'd probably stop it if it was still just Lucic and a 1st for the 2nd, then Ottawa fully bought out Lucic, and Lucic tried to sign as a free agent in Edmonton again. The league is dumb. They're not insane though. They're high paid lawyers for a reason. They can see when something similar would happen again
staytru20 liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:43
#13
Jay27
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 837
Likes: 395
I think all you guys are missing the point. The Oilers don't want Lucic either lol.

If Lucic really wants out of Edmonton badly enough to waive his NMC with the agreement that it wouldn't be reinstated by Ottawa to avoid him taking up a protection spot come expansion draft time then I think 2 mill retained by the Oilers, then 2 mill retained by the Sens and then a trade to a team willing to give him a fresh start at 2 mill is the only way to move him without EDM having to give away the farm to move him. A lot of moving pieces and again all comes down to Lucic, that's why giving out full NMC is just bad management.
Pete and ThatGuy liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 11:54
#14
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,853
Likes: 1,184
Edmonton would propose the first trade and say "suuuuuuuuuuuuure, we'll take back Lucic at half retained if you take him from us." They'd file the paperwork to make Lucic a Senator, then Keith Gretzky would block Dorion's phone number. "Hehehe, sucker."
awesome and CD282 liked this.
Mar 21, 2019 at 12:43
#15
Pete
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 433
Likes: 17
WHERE IS Lucic? Can't see him on the 1st line. squinty smile
Mar 21, 2019 at 12:46
#16
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
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Likes: 574
Quoting: jonesryan
The league guarantees steps in and stops a trade back to Edmonton at half retained salary. It's clear circumvention (not to mention that I don't think Edmonton would want him back).

The difference is exactly what's been said. Orpik has the chance to sign anywhere and could've signed somewhere for more. Washington didn't make it obvious that it was clearly their intent to sign Orpik again, but it was their intent to move his salary to free up space. Something like that had never been done before in the cap era. Now that it has, once the league sees its even possible for it to happen again they'll stop it. They'd probably stop it if it was still just Lucic and a 1st for the 2nd, then Ottawa fully bought out Lucic, and Lucic tried to sign as a free agent in Edmonton again. The league is dumb. They're not insane though. They're high paid lawyers for a reason. They can see when something similar would happen again


Quoting: F50marco
Wasn't Orpik bought out? If Otttawa buys out Lucic and then Lucic signs with the Oilers again, i think technically that is ok. Even though I have a feeling the NHL might have only "allowed" the Orpik deal because he was an over 35+ vet and the Caps just came off a cup, etc. By most people opinion it was cap circumvention even though there is no clause in the CBA against it specifically.


Quoting: staytru20
Not being naive - that's why I said it wasn't a straight "buy out Orpik so we can sign him again". The NHL cleared this trade and determined no cap circumvention. It was back-alley enough that it didn't generate enough clear "collusion". This trade would be clear collusion and cap circumvention.


I understand that it's not ethical or moral! That's not what I am arguing. I am saying legally, there is not much they can do until they add a clause to the CBA. There have been a lot of immoral actions done in the past, that still play in the impact in today's NHL (e.g. Weber's contract). And by allowing Orpik to sign with the caps, they have set a dangerous president which I am sure they'll address before the 2020-2021 season. And don't give me the "Orpik was a FA, it's his right to go where ever he wants". Lucic is essentially a FA with his NMC.

Now, do you really think the league steps in if this trade gets done over the summer? No wayyyy. Yeah maybe the Sens and Oilers camouflage it a little better by adding other players and spreading the transaction over an extensive period of time. They're also wouldn't be any written agreements done beforehand, therefore, everything would have to be done in good faith. But at the end of the day, financially, it's in the league best interest to give McDavid the best chance to win. Fans don't want to see the best player in the world miss the playoffs year in, year out.

And what is the difference with this and a 3-way trade (e.g. the Brassard trade from OTT-LGK-PITS)?

Either way, I was just playing around since everyone on here thinks Lucic is coming to Ottawa for some reason. I personally don't think Lucic is moveable.
Mar 21, 2019 at 12:47
#17
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2018
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Quoting: tkecanuck341
Edmonton would propose the first trade and say "suuuuuuuuuuuuure, we'll take back Lucic at half retained if you take him from us." They'd file the paperwork to make Lucic a Senator, then Keith Gretzky would block Dorion's phone number. "Hehehe, sucker."


I would lose it!!! if that happened laugh
Mar 21, 2019 at 12:51
#18
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2018
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Likes: 574
Quoting: Jay27
I think all you guys are missing the point. The Oilers don't want Lucic either lol. laugh laugh laugh true

If Lucic really wants out of Edmonton badly enough to waive his NMC with the agreement that it wouldn't be reinstated by Ottawa to avoid him taking up a protection spot come expansion draft time then I think 2 mill retained by the Oilers, then 2 mill retained by the Sens and then a trade to a team willing to give him a fresh start at 2 mill is the only way to move him without EDM having to give away the farm to move him. A lot of moving pieces and again all comes down to Lucic, that's why giving out full NMC is just bad management.


I agree that this is the most likely scenerio
Mar 21, 2019 at 12:52
#19
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
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Likes: 574
Quoting: Pete
WHERE IS Lucic? Can't see him on the 1st line. squinty smile


Hopefully in the Minors
Mar 21, 2019 at 1:01
#20
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,419
Likes: 1,224
Quoting: ThatGuy
I understand that it's not ethical or moral! That's not what I am arguing. I am saying legally, there is not much they can do until they add a clause to the CBA. There have been a lot of immoral actions done in the past, that still play in the impact in today's NHL (e.g. Weber's contract). And by allowing Orpik to sign with the caps, they have set a dangerous president which I am sure they'll address before the 2020-2021 season. And don't give me the "Orpik was a FA, it's his right to go where ever he wants". Lucic is essentially a FA with his NMC.

Now, do you really think the league steps in if this trade gets done over the summer? No wayyyy. Yeah maybe the Sens and Oilers camouflage it a little better by adding other players and spreading the transaction over an extensive period of time. They're also wouldn't be any written agreements done beforehand, therefore, everything would have to be done in good faith. But at the end of the day, financially, it's in the league best interest to give McDavid the best chance to win. Fans don't want to see the best player in the world miss the playoffs year in, year out.

And what is the difference with this and a 3-way trade (e.g. the Brassard trade from OTT-LGK-PITS)?

Either way, I was just playing around since everyone on here thinks Lucic is coming to Ottawa for some reason. I personally don't think Lucic is moveable.


Lol. You're forgetting the the league declines the first 3 way trade between Ottawa, Pittsburgh and Vegas for very similar reasons
Mar 21, 2019 at 1:05
#21
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 17,116
Likes: 4,609
Quoting: ThatGuy
I understand that it's not ethical or moral! That's not what I am arguing. I am saying legally, there is not much they can do until they add a clause to the CBA. There have been a lot of immoral actions done in the past, that still play in the impact in today's NHL (e.g. Weber's contract). And by allowing Orpik to sign with the caps, they have set a dangerous president which I am sure they'll address before the 2020-2021 season. And don't give me the "Orpik was a FA, it's his right to go where ever he wants". Lucic is essentially a FA with his NMC.

Now, do you really think the league steps in if this trade gets done over the summer? No wayyyy. Yeah maybe the Sens and Oilers camouflage it a little better by adding other players and spreading the transaction over an extensive period of time. They're also wouldn't be any written agreements done beforehand, therefore, everything would have to be done in good faith. But at the end of the day, financially, it's in the league best interest to give McDavid the best chance to win. Fans don't want to see the best player in the world miss the playoffs year in, year out.

And what is the difference with this and a 3-way trade (e.g. the Brassard trade from OTT-LGK-PITS)?

Either way, I was just playing around since everyone on here thinks Lucic is coming to Ottawa for some reason. I personally don't think Lucic is moveable.


OK but we can't just assume all chaos is plausible now either...... But who knows maybe the NHL wouldn't do anything. No one knows until you try except you don't want to be the one team that didn't get away with it because you'll be slapped with the biggest fines....
Mar 21, 2019 at 1:08
#22
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 574
Quoting: jonesryan
Lol. You're forgetting the the league declines the first 3 way trade between Ottawa, Pittsburgh and Vegas for very similar reasons


Because nothing was going back to Vegas from Ottawa, who ended up sending a 4th liner AHL player. They amended the trade and it went through?

I clearly said that EDM and OTT would have to camouflage it a little better
Mar 21, 2019 at 1:09
#23
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 574
Quoting: F50marco
OK but we can't just assume all chaos is plausible now either...... But who knows maybe the NHL wouldn't do anything. No one knows until you try except you don't want to be the one team that didn't get away with it because you'll be slapped with the biggest fines....


Lol true true...

Melnyk can't afford big fines right now
Mar 21, 2019 at 1:39
#24
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,419
Likes: 1,224
Quoting: ThatGuy
Because nothing was going back to Vegas from Ottawa, who ended up sending a 4th liner AHL player. They amended the trade and it went through?

I clearly said that EDM and OTT would have to camouflage it a little better


They wouldn't be able to "camouflage" it a little. The league has seen this before and knows it's circumvention. They deny it and have legal grounds to do it.
Mar 21, 2019 at 1:44
#25
Thread Starter
Sports and Tacos
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 574
Quoting: jonesryan
They wouldn't be able to "camouflage" it a little. The league has seen this before and knows it's circumvention. They deny it and have legal grounds to do it.


Unwritten rules don't qualify as "legal grounds"
 
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