We must be watching 2 completely different players. Jones is one of the most well-rounded players in the league. Hedman-Lite

I honestly don't know how you could come to that conclusion. Jones was caved in on the ice. Here is this just so you're caught up on what I've been saying. While the Leafs failed to convert in the series, pretty much every chance given up was with Jones on, and he doesn't do a good job of creating. If you'd like I can show you the Analytics, although if you have time and prefer the eye test, re-watch the series and REALLY focus in on Jones. I mean watch nothing else. So often he allows the Leafs to run roughshod over them, and then does nothing in the offensive end after a spectacular play.

xOFF GAR (offense)
Jones -0.3
Holl 0.4

xDEF GAR (defense)
Jones 1.2
Holl 2.1

xWAR (expected wins above replacement)
Jones 0.2
Holl 0.1

WAR (wins above replacement)
Jones 0.8
Holl 0.5

RAPM xGF +/- (two-way)
Jones -0.104
Holl 0.134

TOI vs Elite Competition
Jones 31.3%
Holl 35.9%

Holl also beats Jones in RAPM xGF/60, CF/60, xGA/60 and CA/60 while their GF/60 is pretty much tied
Jones is better on the PP (but Holl has barely played PP minutes, so take that with a grain of salt)

Everyone in the hockey world knows how good he is. He’s a legit #1D

I never said he was AHL calibre. Hes definitely an NHL defenseman. he just isnt a superstar

I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that you're missing stuff with your eye test. This is specifically what analytics were created to help alleviate but as you don't trust them I'd heavily suggest re-watching that series closely.

Nah I find it amusing because he tries to argue like he knows the game better because he uses strictly advanced stats and thinks that no one else does. I am an avid user of advanced stats myself and probably know them just as well or better than him, yet I know where they have their limits. It's crazy how the NHL just ranked him 5th in the league last week and even THG ranked him 6th yet this guy still tries to say he's an AHLer

But Holl is barely NHL caliber so if Holl is better how can Jones be NHL caliber?

Thats why I told you what my eye test told me about Jones. The eye test is different for every person. A person could "hypothetically" see Jack Johnson make a clutch block, and they would think hes a great defenseman. Obviously this isnt true, he sucks. But its subjective. You and I watch hockey very differently

Holl is a decent NHL defenseman as well...

dont tell me you just used a THG ranking... I respect what he does for the community, but his opinions and analysis are just awful

I don't trust analytics? Besides the moron who started this whole argument i'm probably one of the biggest users of advanced stats on this site. I am fully aware of how mediocre Jones RAPM is, I am fully aware of how average is GAR is. Hell, Ryan Ellis had the 2nd best GAR in the league and got zero Norris votes yet Jones tied for 11th in voting

You are obsessed with analytics no? Holls numbers away from Muzzin we abysmal

So when I tell you he was caved in and contributed nothing and only looks good by a simple eye test due to the fact that he does 'nothing' in a flashy way you'd agree?
You're right that you should never 100% rely on analytics as your only info source, but the eye test isn't better than it and it shouldn't overwrite what analytics say, especially when it is this clear.
Which is funny that I say that, because a good eye test will confirm what the numbers say. He looks great doing nothing

You know who else got Norris votes? Esa Lindell and Zdeno Chara

So yeah, keep using Norris votes to determine who is better

Thats why I use isolates stats...

This is the most ironic thing coming from you. He is well respected for his knowledge on the game, just because his view on analytics are the exact opposite of yours does not make his opinions bad.

I also said the NHL ranked Jones 5th. Yes the leagues analytics ranked him 5th, you know people who actually have a career in this industry.

Do you mind searching up what the appeal to authority fallacy is?
Talk to me after you understand it

Alright bud, I'd calm down on using league rankings. They are notoriously bad to a hilarious degree. (John Gibson being the 9th or 10th ranked goalie in the year he should have won the vezina being the shining example).

No the numbers say Ellis is the best defenseman in the the league. Obviously that is not true. I've watched a lot of Jones games and my conclusion of him is completely different from yours. That is fine, you are allowed to have your own opinion but dont force your opinions down other peoples throats

That's not even related. The NHL doesn't gain anything out of naming Jones the 5th best defenseman in the league. Furthermore I also told you my opinion own opinion on him which is not at all related to what the pros say. Have you by chance read in to why the league considers him a top 5 defenseman? Have you read other peoples views or even tried to widen your perspective?

Nobody is saying Ellis is the best defenseman. he just happens to lead in A stat. If you look around the league you will find that many players lead in many different stats. Auston Matthews was 1st in the NHL in xWAR this year. Does that make him the best player in the league? no. You need to use a combination of stats and the eye test in order to make an accurate claim

yeah ok, im done here. you clearly wont change your opinion, I wont change mine. This argument is going nowhere

That isn't what the numbers say. Ellis is an underrated Dman and is either the best 2nd pair Dman in the league, or on most teams a high end top pair D. If you're contesting that there is no point to this conversation because you are factually and provably wrong.

That is fine to have your own opinion. That doesn't mean you're right tho, and you are the ones mocking the provably correct opinion here. I'm sorry that your eye test isn't a good as you think it is. I am serious. If you want to see what we are seeing go back and watch the games VERY closely. Anything he does never amounts to anything and he gives up the farm far too often. Or for a quicker method:


I mean hey, I'll give you that he had a very good 17-18. Issue is that he is riding his rep from that even though he hasn't been at that level in awhile. I'll even add that I've been downplaying his defensive ability a bit by omitting the fact that it was Werenski-Jones that gave up a ton, not just Jones (although that doesn't really make it much better imo).

While I agree that Jones and werenski are a little overrated as a pair, I thought it was Savard and Gavrikov that gave up everything? Or was that the TB series?