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If Dubas and Keefe are let go who do you want as Leafs next GM and coach

Created by: Brad_Treliving
Team: 2023-24 Toronto Maple Leafs
Initial Creation Date: Apr. 19, 2023
Published: Apr. 19, 2023
Salary Cap Mode: Basic
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Elliotte Friedman on 32T / JM Show said that there WILL be MASSIVE changes if the Leafs are out in R1. He also said Dubas will have a new contract contingent on if he wins in R1 and that the MLSE board is impatient and wants to see results


New GM: Matthieu Darche (2 time Stanley Cup AGM with the Lightning)
New coach: Peter Laviolette
Free Agent Signings
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2$1,100,000
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2023
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2024
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2025
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20$83,500,000$77,106,450$0$0$6,393,550
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:27 a.m.
#1
exo2769
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People will call me crazy, but grow the GM position from within...maybe Pridham? Get a veteran voice behind the bench...Bruce Boudreau.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:28 a.m.
#2
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Quoting: exo2769
People will call me crazy, but grow the GM position from within...maybe Pridham? Get a veteran voice behind the bench...Bruce Boudreau.


What has Prindham done? Has he won a Stanley cup?

What has Bruce Boudreau done? Has he won a Stanley cup?
Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:30 a.m.
#3
HuGo is a Boss GM
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The Darche Vader will strengthen the evil empire. I love it!

Just so we're clear... That would make the Habs the resistance and MSL Yoda... Right?
Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:31 a.m.
#4
exo2769
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Quoting: Babatunde
What has Prindham done? Has he won a Stanley cup?

What has Bruce Boudreau done? Has he won a Stanley cup?


If your search is going to be THAT binary...you've eliminated a lot of good quality candidates AND don't have much to choose from. You want Stan Bowman and potentially Babs back? Dubas has done a pretty decent job. This TDL was his best ever IMO. Pridham has navigated the cap better than any team in the NHL.

It's not as if PL won a cup either and Stevie Y is the mastermind behind TBLs two cups.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:37 a.m.
#5
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Quoting: exo2769
If your search is going to be THAT binary...you've eliminated a lot of good quality candidates AND don't have much to choose from. You want Stan Bowman and potentially Babs back? Dubas has done a pretty decent job. This TDL was his best ever IMO. Pridham has navigated the cap better than any team in the NHL.

It's not as if PL won a cup either and Stevie Y is the mastermind behind TBLs two cups.


What has Dubas accomplished to warrant that he returns? Regardless if we want him back or not, Friedman already said on his latest 32T (or the Jeff Marek show I forgot lol) that there will be MASSIVE changes if Dubas doesn't win in R1

I don't know about you but sounds like Dubas won't be back if there is another first round collapse
Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:38 a.m.
#6
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Quoting: jonh514
The Darche Vader will strengthen the evil empire. I love it!

Just so we're clear... That would make the Habs the resistance and MSL Yoda... Right?


I don't get it
Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:38 a.m.
#7
Yall gotta Chill
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Darche for me would be a good choice. He had the hockey grits as a player so sees the players and can read them well. He's also got a couple of years in Tampa so he got first hand training at the GM level from Brisebois.

A coach? I would not get Laviolette in Toronto. I think they need to get some new blood in the NHL but with lots of experience.
- Benoit Groulx seem to come to mind from the start. He's got lots of experience, great play read, able to handle the pressure of the market. Canadian born coach, did his thing in the Quebec Juniors, and now the AHL for some years..
- Mitch Love, got the Wranglers to the top seat in the AHL, same for him in terms of reading players.
- Dan Bylsma could be brought back to the NHL level.. He's done great work in the AHL this season, but would not be that new NHL blood I was talking about..
- Rand Pecknold should also be a candidate. He's done amazing work in the NCAA.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:40 a.m.
#8
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Quoting: WhoCares_ItsAFantasyGame
Darche for me would be a good choice. He had the hockey grits as a player so sees the players and can read them well. He's also got a couple of years in Tampa so he got first hand training at the GM level from Brisebois.

A coach? I would not Laviolette in Toronto. I think they need to get some new blood in the NHL but with lots of experience.
- Benoit Groulx seem to come to mind from the start. He's got lots of experience, great play read, able to handle the pressure of the market. Canadian born coach, did his thing in the Quebec Juniors, and now the AHL for some years..
- Mitch Love, got the Wranglers to the top seat in the AHL, same for him in terms of reading players.
- Dan Bylsma could be brought back to the NHL level.. He's done great work in the AHL this season, but would not be that new NHL blood I was talking about..
- Rand Pecknold should also be a candidate. He's done amazing work in the NCAA.


I don't know many options about anyone outside of the NHL level but thanks for the list. New blood wouldn't be bad either BUT at the same time, Keefe was new blood and we had 5 first round exits with him
Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:41 a.m.
#9
HuGo is a Boss GM
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Quoting: Babatunde
I don't get it


Sarcasm?

In case it's not, when Darche played for the Habs his nickname was the Darche Vader (play on words for Darth Vader).
Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:43 a.m.
#10
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Quoting: jonh514
Sarcasm?

In case it's not, when Darche played for the Habs his nickname was the Darche Vader (play on words for Darth Vader).


Ohh I actually didn't know that
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:45 a.m.
#11
exo2769
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Quoting: Babatunde
What has Dubas accomplished to warrant that he returns? Regardless if we want him back or not, Friedman already said on his latest 32T (or the Jeff Marek show I forgot lol) that there will be MASSIVE changes if Dubas doesn't win in R1

I don't know about you but sounds like Dubas won't be back if there is another first round collapse


I personally don't think it's a management issue. They just put the players on the ice. Keefe to me is a much bigger problem. A veteran coach willing to send messages to guys like Matthews are needed. Just like Cooper has done in the past, Mathews, Marner, Nylander should have road the pine for the end of the 3rd. I personally would make big adjustments to the PK as well. Brodie was the cause for at least two of those PK goals. Why is Marner still on the PK when you acquired Lafferty? I get that Marner CAN play the PK, but SHOULD he? Focus the offense...on the offensive side. I'd also yell, but not swap out the #1 PP. Didn't look like anyone on that PP unit wanted to crash the net. Even if there's a low success rate jambing it in down low...take the hits and TBLs D will have to honor it opening up the slot and/or Dsnipe. It's just super simple stuff that Keefe isn't adjusting to. KISS...keep it simple.

It's just 1 game.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 8:54 a.m.
#12
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Quoting: Babatunde
Ohh I actually didn't know that


Don't you see. It plays even better if he joins the Leafs organization in a leadership position. Once a Jedi now a Sith... It's really elegant.
Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:03 a.m.
#13
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Quoting: exo2769
I personally don't think it's a management issue. They just put the players on the ice. Keefe to me is a much bigger problem. A veteran coach willing to send messages to guys like Matthews are needed. Just like Cooper has done in the past, Mathews, Marner, Nylander should have road the pine for the end of the 3rd. I personally would make big adjustments to the PK as well. Brodie was the cause for at least two of those PK goals. Why is Marner still on the PK when you acquired Lafferty? I get that Marner CAN play the PK, but SHOULD he? Focus the offense...on the offensive side. I'd also yell, but not swap out the #1 PP. Didn't look like anyone on that PP unit wanted to crash the net. Even if there's a low success rate jambing it in down low...take the hits and TBLs D will have to honor it opening up the slot and/or Dsnipe. It's just super simple stuff that Keefe isn't adjusting to. KISS...keep it simple.

It's just 1 game.


Whether we want Dubas gone or not, I'm just saying what I listened to in the latest 32T / JM Show. All Friedman said was to not expect Dubas back if we lose in R1

I agree though, the first order of change is Keefe
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:10 a.m.
#14
Marner rocks
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Rielly-not a top pairing d-man
Jarnkrok, Lafferty, Holmberg, Robertson, McMann are not the role players that will win you a cup. They might do well regular season AGAIN but will get destroyed in the playoffs. Brodie doesn't win a battle in front of the net against anyone. If it would be possible Brodie and Rielly on d would be gone and bring in some guys with emotion. A 90 yr old bed ridden old man in a coma has more emotion then those two put together.
Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:23 a.m.
#15
Yall gotta Chill
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Quoting: Babatunde
I don't know many options about anyone outside of the NHL level but thanks for the list. New blood wouldn't be bad either BUT at the same time, Keefe was new blood and we had 5 first round exits with him


Remember that when I say new blood, I mean in the NHL but not sacrificing the experience. All coaches here have tons of Head Coaching years. So they have been "well maintained" for some years, and just need their moment to come up. Keefe only had 10 seasons TOTAL as a coach before joining Toronto, and that's couting his start in the CJHL. By comparison, Groulx has 23 years starting at the QMJHL level at this point.. Rand 20.. So it could play out as a factor.

I think the issue with the Leafs right now is that Dubas was way too young and while he was an agent for some time, he wasn't a very good one.. Players left him every day.. In Europe might I say..

While Darche is more seasoned, know the game, understands you can't have 10 Matthews in a team and expect to win, you need that solid first line, a powerfull second line, a third that can play defense and give that offensive puch from time to time and a fourth that can defend and hit hard. He knows that the team chemistry in a locker room is essential in winning. If that star player ain't diching out, then you don't get to the final cup.

Hence my own opinion on the take, and what I would do ..
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:26 a.m.
#16
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I really don't think Dubas has done all the much after what was handed to him by the previous regime.
Leafs have not developed any draft picks.....except the first rounders, Relly, Nylander, Matthews, Marner.......and the first three were under Lou's watch.
Goaltending Woil is the only other drafted Leaf on the team this playoffs.
Leafs current prospects rank below average compared to other NHL team
Leafs have traded away good draft picks in the next three drafts.
As a result, I don't think Dubas warrants a contract extension.
For the Leafs to get better long run, I gotta think upcoming UFAs Matthews and Nylander should be traded by TDL....now maybe the Leafs don't do it cause they want another Cup run..
New GM? I don't know. New coach if there is one? I don't know.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:40 a.m.
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IMO, even if they get out of the 1st round I dont think that helps, they need a deep run.

Dubas (and Keefe) have hitched their wagon to the 4 forwards pulling over half the cap, and have not been able to surround them with quality youth, real depth or been able to address the defense or goaltending.

Lets blame freddy andersen, lets blame campbell, lets blame samsonov, lets blame team defense, team depth, etc... yet every year its these duct tape fixes. Its the team structure, approach, mindset.

We have one young guy (whos in his 4th pro season already) in liljegren, with robertson looking like a bust and amirov being struck down, leaving just 3-4 above average prospects, yet are relying on 30+ yr olds in Giordano, ROR, Acciari, Jarnkrot, Schenn to fix whats wrong. And theres this ridiculous revolving door of has beens/never weres in mcmann, mete, benn, kral, steeves, malgin, hunt, holmberg, mikheyev, engvall, clifford, simmonds, kalgren all offerring very little and all getting just a glimpse, but none being good enough to stick, (or if they are good enough, we cant afford to keep them: Mikheyev, kapanen, Hyman, etc...). And at the single most important position, Dubas is like throwing darts blindfolded with perennial unreliable AND expensive guys like mrazek and murray, and then being mildly suprised but ultimately disappointed by a campbell or samsonov.

Its this reliance on 4 forwards to do it all, even though thats been shown year in and year out that it doesn;t work in the playoffs. Going into next year, with a thinner team and lesser chances for youth (all the picks gone), do you actually expect Dubas to admite his prior mistakes and be able to make this team better AND get Matthews, Nylander to resign for reasonable monies or trade them for a boatload?

The biggest worry is that they dont trade 1 of the big 4 in the offseason, go through 23-24 and again show themselves to be regular season powerhouses, and you CAN'T trade them at the deadline, because you'd get less AND you cant pack up the season on game 68 if you're once again near the top of the east.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:44 a.m.
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If they lose in the 1st round again it's time to blow up the whole team and start over. This core can't get it done and they're not getting any more cap space anytime soon with matthews and Nylander needing raises. Blow it up now before you give Nylander and matthews new deals. Dubas will be fired but I think he's done a decent job. He'll get scooped up quick. Scouting and development needs an overhaul. It's a lot harder to win when you get no help coming up through the organization.
Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:52 a.m.
#19
exo2769
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Quoting: palhal
I really don't think Dubas has done all the much after what was handed to him by the previous regime.
Leafs have not developed any draft picks.....except the first rounders, Relly, Nylander, Matthews, Marner.......and the first three were under Lou's watch.
Goaltending Woil is the only other drafted Leaf on the team this playoffs.
Leafs current prospects rank below average compared to other NHL team
Leafs have traded away good draft picks in the next three drafts.
As a result, I don't think Dubas warrants a contract extension.
For the Leafs to get better long run, I gotta think upcoming UFAs Matthews and Nylander should be traded by TDL....now maybe the Leafs don't do it cause they want another Cup run..
New GM? I don't know. New coach if there is one? I don't know.


I guess I'll disagree a little bit, not with the facts that you've outlined, but the cause/effect of "not developed any draft picks". Sandin was his 1st ever pick and an argument can be made that he developed quite well when comparing Sandin to other 2018 draft picks. Was he ultimately traded...sure. We'll see how that works out. Too fresh to truly know. Are we also really expecting 2019+ drafts picks to supplant Matthews/Marner/Nylander? A.) There isn't a ton of available ice time. B.) Brain Tumor C.) Nick Robertson's been hurt a lot too. I'd actually argue the opposite point, that IMO (Just one man's opinion) this is the 1st year Dubas has truly taken the TDL serious. a 1st round pick for Foligno??? (2) 2nds for Gio??? ROR, 3 years of McCabe 50% retained (good for the long term too), and Lafferty who needs to replace Marner on the PK IMO. Best TDL this year vs overpaying for decent, but not great talent.

I don't think it's on Dubas to decide who's on the PK unit. I don't think it's on Dubas to yell at Keefe to tell the #1 PP that not EVERY single play has to be a perfect tik-tak-toe for a goal or a perfect snipe. Someone has to charge that net and take some lumps. Perry was certainly willing. Cirelli was certainly willing. I'm not saying the Leafs aren't physical. They played a very hard nosed game...just not where it mattered most. It's different to go hit someone than know you're going to get hit, but do it anyway. Bunting got too carried away. He'll likely sit another game. It's only 1 game.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 9:54 a.m.
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Eric Tulsky is your guy. He has found lots if success in a great program in Carolina. If he is allowed to interview I see him as a real target.
Apr. 19, 2023 at 10:06 a.m.
#21
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: exo2769
I guess I'll disagree a little bit, not with the facts that you've outlined, but the cause/effect of "not developed any draft picks".

Thanks Mr Exo for your thoughts. (youralways give honest opinions). It just isn't the loss tonight last night, that was has been my opinion of Dubas for awhile. Also he was been IMO poor at contract negotiations. Now, I don't know what the "decision making process" is with Leafs management, but in many occasions, I think the Leafs management has been "missing in action". Overall I think they have been somewhat inept, because what I look at many of the total management decisions.......they have been poor.
The next couple of years the Leafs really have some decisions to make.......whoever is GM. Expiring UFA contracts among other to Matthew/Nylaner.Tavares/Marner/Brodie/Murray. That's over 50m. That cap has to be spent wisely to compete. The Wings/Sabres/.Sens/Habs....should be better in the second half this decade. Who of Bruins/Tampa/Panthers/Leafs.....falls back?


PS How do like my avatar. That's me at age six...February 1961 in the backyard rink
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 10:09 a.m.
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Quoting: exo2769
I guess I'll disagree a little bit, not with the facts that you've outlined, but the cause/effect of "not developed any draft picks". Sandin was his 1st ever pick and an argument can be made that he developed quite well when comparing Sandin to other 2018 draft picks. Was he ultimately traded...sure. We'll see how that works out. Too fresh to truly know. Are we also really expecting 2019+ drafts picks to supplant Matthews/Marner/Nylander? A.) There isn't a ton of available ice time. B.) Brain Tumor C.) Nick Robertson's been hurt a lot too. I'd actually argue the opposite point, that IMO (Just one man's opinion) this is the 1st year Dubas has truly taken the TDL serious. a 1st round pick for Foligno??? (2) 2nds for Gio??? ROR, 3 years of McCabe 50% retained (good for the long term too), and Lafferty who needs to replace Marner on the PK IMO. Best TDL this year vs overpaying for decent, but not great talent.

I don't think it's on Dubas to decide who's on the PK unit. I don't think it's on Dubas to yell at Keefe to tell the #1 PP that not EVERY single play has to be a perfect tik-tak-toe for a goal or a perfect snipe. Someone has to charge that net and take some lumps. Perry was certainly willing. Cirelli was certainly willing. I'm not saying the Leafs aren't physical. They played a very hard nosed game...just not where it mattered most. It's different to go hit someone than know you're going to get hit, but do it anyway. Bunting got too carried away. He'll likely sit another game. It's only 1 game.


Dont know though, look at what Dubas has done to this teams drafting ability for the next 3 years. Knowing that robertson and amirov look like busts and sandin/Liljegren looking promising, but in their 4th pro season neither had been a reliable top 4, trading 3 years of good picks/Sandin might not have been the way to go, especially for KNOWN issues dating back years

I think he was so desperate that he basically spent EVERYTHING, but for what?

In the offseason and during the season it was the same retreads/non-fixes/duct tape approach (Malgin, Hunt, Murray to name just 3), this island of misfit toys approach year after year.

So at the TDL he almost empties the cupboard, but for what? Same stuff he needs but fails to acquire every year: stay at home/physical dman (McCabe/Schenn), physical 4th liner (acciari/Lafferty), leadership and depth (ROR). I dont blame him for going for it, the pressure has to be intense, but a blind man could see the same flaws year after year.

With less picks, prospects, more holes in the lineup AND the approaching free agent issues, EXPENSIVE and very short term fixes probablky might not have been the way to go.
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Apr. 19, 2023 at 10:25 a.m.
#23
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You should hire Treliving. Flames ownership really screwed him on a lot of deals he tried to make (Mark Stone, Jack Eichel, Pierre-Luc Dubois, etc). Yes the other teams outbid the Flames in the end but ownership only gave him so much to work with. Tre is pretty much fearless when it comes to trades but he's also not an idiot, look at the Dougie Hamilton, or Matthew Tkachuk deals.

He's also fantastic at drafting outside the 1st round. Since he took over drafting in 2015 he's gotten; Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, Andrew Mangiapane, Dillon Dube, Adam Fox, Adam Ruzicka, and Dustin Wolf. Other names that have decent NHL potential like; Matthew Phillips*, Yan Kuznetsov, Jeremie Porier, Rory Kerins, William Stromgren, and Jack Beck.
Apr. 19, 2023 at 10:25 a.m.
#24
exo2769
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Quoting: Hammerwise
Dont know though, look at what Dubas has done to this teams drafting ability for the next 3 years. Knowing that robertson and amirov look like busts and sandin/Liljegren looking promising, but in their 4th pro season neither had been a reliable top 4, trading 3 years of good picks/Sandin might not have been the way to go, especially for KNOWN issues dating back years

I think he was so desperate that he basically spent EVERYTHING, but for what?

In the offseason and during the season it was the same retreads/non-fixes/duct tape approach (Malgin, Hunt, Murray to name just 3), this island of misfit toys approach year after year.

So at the TDL he almost empties the cupboard, but for what? Same stuff he needs but fails to acquire every year: stay at home/physical dman (McCabe/Schenn), physical 4th liner (acciari/Lafferty), leadership and depth (ROR). I dont blame him for going for it, the pressure has to be intense, but a blind man could see the same flaws year after year.

With less picks, prospects, more holes in the lineup AND the approaching free agent issues, EXPENSIVE and very short term fixes probablky might not have been the way to go.


I guess the biggest difference from the outside looking in is that I don't blame Dubas at all for Amirov/Robertson. How can you foresee brain tumor? Robertson was the 53rd pick. Go to that 2019 draft and look for yourself. I'd argue that if not for the injuries...he'd be better than most those 2nds. Don't sell on Robertson now so low. Just get him healthy and give him ice time. It's hockey. We can't predict injuries. They do happen.

I have zero clue why Timmy wasn't playing, but again...not exactly a Dubas call, right? Keefe put out the team he wanted. I think we're trying to play some 4-D chess if were comparing Luke Schenn to Liljegren.

I kinda agree, but also disagree with Dubas "empties the cupboard". This year he did and did it wisely IMO. 3 years of McCabe at $2M is good this year and 2 more years. ROR has played well. one of the best TDL pickups. Very good TDL this year. Years past is my issue with Dubas. I don't think he found value at the TDL. I never thought Foligno was going to make a difference. Gio is an ok move, but wasn't an area to true need. I agree with that.

It's one game. Let's see how Cernak/Hedman are doing.
Apr. 19, 2023 at 10:26 a.m.
#25
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Quoting: Hammerwise
Dont know though, look at what Dubas has done to this teams drafting ability for the next 3 years. Knowing that robertson and amirov look like busts and sandin/Liljegren looking promising, but in their 4th pro season neither had been a reliable top 4, trading 3 years of good picks/Sandin might not have been the way to go, especially for KNOWN issues dating back years

I think he was so desperate that he basically spent EVERYTHING, but for what?

In the offseason and during the season it was the same retreads/non-fixes/duct tape approach (Malgin, Hunt, Murray to name just 3), this island of misfit toys approach year after year.

So at the TDL he almost empties the cupboard, but for what? Same stuff he needs but fails to acquire every year: stay at home/physical dman (McCabe/Schenn), physical 4th liner (acciari/Lafferty), leadership and depth (ROR). I dont blame him for going for it, the pressure has to be intense, but a blind man could see the same flaws year after year.

With less picks, prospects, more holes in the lineup AND the approaching free agent issues, EXPENSIVE and very short term fixes probablky might not have been the way to go.


Calling Amirov a bust is not fair. You can call him someone with no trade value but saying he's a bust for getting brain cancer is absurd
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