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2023-2024 NHL Discussion Thread #2: Early Overreactions

Jan. 3 at 10:58 a.m.
#1026
What in tarnation
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Seeing this McDavid hype train after reaching those 900 points in little over 600 games (f*cking insane job) made me want to dig out a little bit deeper to the point statistics between the seasons throughout his career (except his rookie year). After all, this dude has missed the Art Ross trophy only twice since 2016-17 season (the year when he turned 20). That made me think about what would the situation be if McDavid wasn't around? So, here's Top3 of P/GP (20 games played limit) from the season 2016-17 to current season, with McDavid's result in place, but excluded in the order.

2016-17
x. McDavid, 82 games, 1.22 PPG
1. Sidney Crosby, 75, 1.19
2. Evgeni Malkin, 82, 1.16
3. Nikita Kucherov, 74, 1.15

2017-18
x. McDavid, 82 games, 1.32 PPG
1. Nathan MacKinnon, 74, 1.31
2. Evgeni Malkin, 78, 1.26
3. Nikita Kucherov, 80, 1.25

2018-19
1. Nikita Kucherov, 82 games, 1.56 PPG
x. McDavid, 78, 1.49
2. Patrick Kane, 81, 1.36
3. Leon Draisaitl, 82, 1.28

2019-20
1. Leon Draisaitl, 71 games, 1.55 PPG
x. McDavid, 64, 1.52
2. Artemi Panarin, 69, 1.38
3. David Pastrnak, 70, 1.36

2020-21
x. McDavid, 56 games, 1.88 PPG
1. Leon Draisaitl, 56, 1.50
2. Artemi Panarin, 42, 1.38
3. Nathan MacKinnon, 48, 1.35

2021-22
x. McDavid, 80 games, 1.54 PPG
1. Nikita Kucherov, 47, 1.47
2. Auston Matthews, 73, 1.45
3. Jonathan Huberdeau, 80, 1.44

2022-23
x. McDavid, 82 games, 1.87 PPG
1. Leon Draisaitl, 80, 1.60
2. Nathan MacKinnon, 71, 1.56
3. Matthew Tkachuk, 79, 1.38

Current season
1. Nikita Kucherov, 38 games, 1.66 PPG
2. Nathan MacKinnon, 38, 1.61
x. McDavid, 33, 1.61
3. Jack Hughes, 30, 1.47

Well, first thing is probably that Draisaitl wouldn't be as high up in the numbers either without McDavid lol, but I decided not to take him away from these lists simply to show appreciation to him too, since he's also a great player in his own right. Seeing the names that kept popping up here too more often than others, this is also an appreciation post towards to Nathan MacKinnon and Nikita Kucherov, cuz man those two are good, and would definitely deserve some more individual accolades and appreciation, but alas it's simply not possible now when there's this McDavid guy.
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Jan. 3 at 1:30 p.m.
#1027
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Quoting: justaBoss
Well, first thing is probably that Draisaitl wouldn't be as high up in the numbers either without McDavid lol, but I decided not to take him away from these lists simply to show appreciation to him too, since he's also a great player in his own right. Seeing the names that kept popping up here too more often than others, this is also an appreciation post towards to Nathan MacKinnon and Nikita Kucherov, cuz man those two are good, and would definitely deserve some more individual accolades and appreciation, but alas it's simply not possible now when there's this McDavid guy.


Good stuff. I'm sure MacKinnon and Kucherov are happy with their names on the Cup rather than any individual awards; and I'm sure McDavid would trade any of those for 1 Cup; but it is interesting to see how consistent the #'s 2 -4 guys over that span really are as well as Malkin a couple times early on when he was really dominant.
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Jan. 3 at 3:36 p.m.
#1028
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: mondo
martin jones has two shutouts with this leafs team lmao


This Leafs team is a lot better than people are willing to admit...

Especially when you consider that at one point, Maxim Lajoie was on the 2nd pair...
Jan. 3 at 5:14 p.m.
#1029
WentWughes
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
This Leafs team is a lot better than people are willing to admit...

Especially when you consider that at one point, Maxim Lajoie was on the 2nd pair...


If Leafs lose last night and the Bolts win, Leafs are sitting outside the playoffs. That's why people doubt them.
Jan. 3 at 6:59 p.m.
#1030
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
If Leafs lose last night and the Bolts win, Leafs are sitting outside the playoffs. That's why people doubt them.


And? The Lightning also have 5 more games played than the Leafs...

And like I said... Major injuries to the defensive core and Sammy not stopping a beach at 2 MPH
Jan. 3 at 7:21 p.m.
#1031
WentWughes
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
And? The Lightning also have 5 more games played than the Leafs...

And like I said... Major injuries to the defensive core and Sammy not stopping a beach at 2 MPH


Teams that are in win now mode with many pending UFA's shouldn't be 1 loss out of a playoff spot. Detroit it right there too.
Jan. 3 at 7:22 p.m.
#1032
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Teams that are in win now mode with many pending UFA's shouldn't be 1 loss out of a playoff spot. Detroit it right there too.


You do realize when 3/6 of your starting defensemen get hurt, You are more likely to lose, right?
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Jan. 3 at 7:41 p.m.
#1033
WentWughes
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
You do realize when 3/6 of your starting defensemen get hurt, You are more likely to lose, right?


Who would that be?
Jan. 3 at 7:43 p.m.
#1034
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Who would that be?


Lilly, Gio, McCabe and at times; Brodie
Jan. 3 at 7:48 p.m.
#1035
torontos finest
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
Lilly, Gio, McCabe and at times; Brodie


klingberg was signed to be a top 4 guy. even if he was awful, they're down a regular player with him out. shouldn't be needing benoit on the second pairing
Jan. 3 at 7:54 p.m.
#1036
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: mondo
klingberg was signed to be a top 4 guy. even if he was awful, they're down a regular player with him out. shouldn't be needing benoit on the second pairing


Adds another defensemen onto my list
Jan. 3 at 8:04 p.m.
#1037
WentWughes
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Quoting: Leafsfan98
Lilly, Gio, McCabe and at times; Brodie


Liljgren - 3rd Pairing, good
Giordano - 3rd Pairing, Bad
McCabe - Top 4, Actually a positive contributer
Brodie - Absolutely tire fire

Those injuries should not negatively affect the Leafs. Their lack of depth seems to be the problem. These injuries occur almost every year.
Jan. 3 at 8:54 p.m.
#1038
Go leafs go
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Teams that are in win now mode with many pending UFA's shouldn't be 1 loss out of a playoff spot. Detroit it right there too.


The entire East except for NYR and Boston are in the same boat, people can say what they want about the leafs in the playoffs but regular season leafs are not a team to be doubted.
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Jan. 3 at 9:53 p.m.
#1039
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Liljgren - 3rd Pairing, good
Giordano - 3rd Pairing, Bad
McCabe - Top 4, Actually a positive contributer
Brodie - Absolutely tire fire

Those injuries should not negatively affect the Leafs. Their lack of depth seems to be the problem. These injuries occur almost every year.


Brodie plays 1rst pairing... And McCabe is the number 2 with Lilly being the number 4

They hurt... Especially when William Lagesson and Maxim Lajoie are their replacements... No offence to those guys... But they aren't top 4 caliber rn
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Jan. 3 at 11:56 p.m.
#1040
Hakuna Matata
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How the **** did we win that game

Got to give full props to Dostal he gave the Ducks so much to try and win

But ANA perfect beyond 60 record is over lul
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Jan. 4 at 12:12 a.m.
#1041
Go Habs Go
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Quoting: aadoyle
How the **** did we win that game

Got to give full props to Dostal he gave the Ducks so much to try and win

But ANA perfect beyond 60 record is over lul


Zegras. Unnecessary giveaway and they never recovered possession, then he also lost his coverage on Matthews.

I was just browsing to see if Dostal would get the shutout. He had a chance to hit 60 saves and take the record I believe. He deserved to win that game. The Ducks did not.
Jan. 4 at 12:27 a.m.
#1042
Hakuna Matata
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Why the Leafs called up Hildeby when they dont seem to want to play him has me scratching my head rn

If your whole plan was to use Jones for the 3 games this Cali trip why not call up any of the other young guys

Petruzelli for instance

Idk whole thing seems odd. As they dont seem to want to throw Hildeby into the deep end yet wanted him to come up and sit on the bench which stalls his development in my eyes and curbs the momentum he was building with the Marlies
Jan. 4 at 11:00 a.m.
#1043
torontos finest
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nylander coming in at over 11 million according to more and more reputable sources. not thrilled about that.
Jan. 4 at 11:12 a.m.
#1044
Thread Starter
Bedard23
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Quoting: mondo
nylander coming in at over 11 million according to more and more reputable sources. not thrilled about that.


Yeah, if that’s what it will come out to, it honestly would’ve been better to move on
Jan. 4 at 11:31 a.m.
#1045
Amirov Forever
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Quoting: IconicHawk
Yeah, if that’s what it will come out to, it honestly would’ve been better to move on


No, it really wouldn't have. Overpaying by ~2 mil is less than ideal, but to say that it is so bad that the Leafs would be better off not having Nylander is absurd.

I'm still in the "9.5 mil extension" camp, but it's whatever at this point. I just wish the Leafs would stick to some comparable rather than dishing out huge contracts. Something similar to Gaudreaus deal would be nice
Jan. 4 at 12:42 p.m.
#1046
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Edited Jan. 4 at 1:31 p.m.
Well, so

The leafs on ice system does them no favors. Teams that leverage an abundance of exceptional offensive talent to win ultimately have to pay based on the same comparables everybody else does, with some adjustment, but nowhere near enough, because agents are good at being agents and good players have the natural leverage that comes from being themselves. There’s a bunch of dudes who could add 20 points to their season totals except they’re playing in a different system that prevents those points, and that hurts the leafs a tad but it isn’t unmanageable.

So to give him a fair contract you’ve got to be near the cap percentage of other 27-28 year old top 10-20 extremely reliable scoring wingers in the nhl. If I were the leafs I dunno who I’d use as comparables cause it’ll all be internal metrics but maybe like Johnny Gaudreau who’s at 12% of the cap, 11.7% today, 9.750,000 signed 2 seasons ago.I think that’s a fair place to end up, just adjusted for todays cap, so like 10.4 x 8. Obv these 2 skaters are very different from each other but I wanted to at least find a Canadian(undesirable financially) market for the quick choice.

Fortunately, many skaters like this outperform. Maybe not Johnny tho.

Plus, nylander is extremely reliable, a side benefit that the majority of players cannot claim, ontop of being well above point per game scoring.

Worst case scenario for leaf fans is some reasonable return for the 8 year rights - it shouldn’t be trash, there’s only 1 William nylander, and the caps opening up for everybody. But it does make sense perhaps for the leafs to take a return and use the cap space in other ways. But if he ends up being retained he’s certainly got an outstanding track record, and if the cap is opening up next season maybe it works.
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Jan. 4 at 1:30 p.m.
#1047
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: ricochetii
Zegras. Unnecessary giveaway and they never recovered possession, then he also lost his coverage on Matthews.

I was just browsing to see if Dostal would get the shutout. He had a chance to hit 60 saves and take the record I believe. He deserved to win that game. The Ducks did not.


But that's why you throw 13.25 million bucks at a guy like him; it's virtually impossible to find a guy to cover him while still producing offence against his defence...
Jan. 4 at 1:30 p.m.
#1048
Leafs going to Leafs
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Quoting: CantStopWontStop
Well, so

The leafs on ice system does them no favors. Teams that leverage an abundance of exceptional offensive talent to win ultimately have to pay based on the same comparables everybody else does, with some adjustment, but nowhere near enough, because agents are good at being agents and good players have the natural leverage that comes from being themselves. There’s a bunch of dudes who could add 20 points to their season totals except they’re playing in a different system that prevents those points, and that hurts the leafs a tad but it isn’t unmanageable.

So to give him a fair contract you’ve got to be near the cap percentage of other 27-28 year old top 10-20 extremely reliable scoring wingers in the nhl. If I were the leafs I dunno who I’d use as comparables cause it’ll all be internal metrics but maybe like Johnny Gaudreau who’s at 12% of the cap, 11.7% today, 9.750,000 signed 2 seasons ago.I think that’s a fair place to end up, just adjusted for todays cap, so like 10.4 x 8. Obv these 2 skaters are very different from each other but I wanted to at least find a Canadian market for the quick choice.

Fortunately, many skaters like this outperform. Maybe not Johnny tho.

Plus, nylander is extremely reliable, a side benefit that the majority of players cannot claim, ontop of being well above point per game scoring.

Worst case scenario for leaf fans is some reasonable return for the 8 year rights - it shouldn’t be trash, there’s only 1 William nylander. But it does make sense perhaps for the leafs to take a return and use the cap space in other ways. But if he ends up being retained he’s certainly got an outstanding track record, and if the cap is opening up next season maybe it works.


Agreed^

Would rather explore trade market over pay him by 2-3 mill
Jan. 4 at 2:38 p.m.
#1049
GM CRIME DAWG
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Quoting: aadoyle
Why the Leafs called up Hildeby when they dont seem to want to play him has me scratching my head rn

If your whole plan was to use Jones for the 3 games this Cali trip why not call up any of the other young guys

Petruzelli for instance

Idk whole thing seems odd. As they dont seem to want to throw Hildeby into the deep end yet wanted him to come up and sit on the bench which stalls his development in my eyes and curbs the momentum he was building with the Marlies

I bet Hilde is happy-happy-happy and that's what this kind of call-up can & should do.
West Coast travel, big club practice, warm-up/frat w/ the team and get quality time with coaches. Huge part of what's on the plate here and that's just fine for his development versus a couple of AHL starts fore-fitted in January...
Jan. 4 at 3:54 p.m.
#1050
Hakuna Matata
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Rick Tocchet is a weird HC

Van doing well but lets keep healthy scratching Kuzmenko

And on top of that start with Hoglander to for guys who dont need to be in
 
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