Forums/Armchair-GM

whos gonna try and say seth jones isnt good now

Created by: vr1995
Initial Creation Date: Aug 10, 2020
Published: Aug 10, 2020 at 1:56
Team: 2019-20 Columbus Blue Jackets
Team Explanation
curious to see what advances stats stans have to say about seth jones after the leafs series, the man is minimum a top 10 d in this league
Buyouts
  • Fedor Tyutin: $1,458,333
  • Scott Hartnell: $1,250,000
Retained Salary Transactions
  • Nick Foligno: $2,750,000 (50%)
  • David Savard: $2,125,000 (50%)
DRAFT YEARROUND 1ROUND 2ROUND 3ROUND 4ROUND 5ROUND 6ROUND 7
2020
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
2021
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
2022
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
CBJ
ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES BONUSESCAP SPACE
31$81,500,000$76,926,706$0$4,707,500$4,573,294
Left WingCenterRight Wing
CBJ
Foligno, Nick
$1,375,000
LW, C, RW
NMC NTC
UFA - 2
CBJ
Dubinsky, Brandon
$5,850,000
C, LW
NMC NTC
UFA - 2
CBJ
Atkinson, Cam
$5,875,000
RW, LW
NTC
UFA - 6
CBJ
Shore, Devin
$1,541,000
LW, C, RW
UFA - 1
CBJ
Wennberg, Alexander
$4,900,000
C
UFA - 4
CBJ
Nyquist, Gustav
$5,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 4
CBJ
Robinson, Eric
$874,125
LW
UFA - 1
CBJ
Jenner, Boone
$3,750,000
C, LW
UFA - 3
CBJ
Bjorkstrand, Oliver
$2,500,000
RW, LW
UFA - 2
CBJ
Lilja, Jakob
$842,500
LW
UFA - 1
CBJ
Nash, Riley
$2,750,000
C, RW
UFA - 2
CBJ
Anderson, Josh
$1,850,000
RW
UFA - 1
CBJ
Matteau, Stefan
$725,000
LW
UFA - 2
CBJ
Bemström, Emil
$925,000
C, RW
RFA - 3
CBJ
Stenlund, Kevin
$864,166
RW, C
RFA - 1
CBJ
Gerbe, Nathan
$675,000
LW, RW
UFA - 1
CBJ
Texier, Alexandre
$897,500
LW, C
RFA - 2
CBJ
Dubois, Pierre-Luc
$894,166
C
RFA - 1
CBJ
MacInnis, Ryan
$874,125
C
UFA - 1
Left DefenseRight DefenseGoaltender
CBJ
Werenski, Zachary
$5,000,000
LD
RFA - 3
CBJ
Jones, Seth
$5,400,000
RD
UFA - 3
CBJ
Korpisalo, Joonas
$1,150,000
G
UFA - 1
CBJ
Murray, Ryan
$4,600,000
LD
UFA - 2
CBJ
Savard, David
$1,062,500
RD
UFA - 2
CBJ
Merzlikins, Elvis
$874,125
G
UFA - 1
CBJ
Harrington, Scott
$1,633,333
LD
UFA - 3
CBJ
Nutivaara, Markus
$2,700,000
RD
UFA - 3
CBJ
Gavrikov, Vladislav
$925,000
LD
UFA - 1
CBJ
Peeke, Andrew
$916,667
RD
RFA - 2
CBJ
Carlsson, Gabriel
$894,166
LD
RFA - 1
CBJ
Kukan, Dean
$725,000
RD
UFA - 1

Embed Code

  • To display this team on another website or blog, add this iFrame to the appropriate page
  • Customize the height attribute in the iFrame code below to fit your website appropriately. Minimum recommended: 400px.

Text-Embed

Click to Highlight
jones d rank
The chart has been hidden

Poll Options


Aug 10, 2020 at 1:57
#1
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 5,578
Likes: 2,402
No doubt I hope his little brother turns into half the man Seth is.
Aug 10, 2020 at 1:58
#2
best poster
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 4,798
jfresh is a big dumb-dumb
Aug 10, 2020 at 1:58
#3
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 448
Likes: 116
top ten... as a SENS fan, I say he's top 5 and IMO the best TWD in the NHL at the moment
Aug 10, 2020 at 1:58
#4
Lenny7
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,155
Likes: 4,565
He's definitely good at hockey.
Aug 10, 2020 at 1:59
#5
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7,518
Likes: 3,302
Jones played great vs Toronto, but his advanced stats still suck. Guess you can’t take advanced stats 100% of the time or as the only thing to judge a player on....
Aug 10, 2020 at 1:59
#6
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 7,032
Likes: 2,631
Me!
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:01
#7
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,767
Likes: 1,155
Quoting: Ajp_18
Jones played great vs Toronto, but his advanced stats still suck. Guess you can’t take advanced stats 100% of the time or as the only thing to judge a player on....


that is exactly my point, its the people who used advanced stats as the be all end all, he was the best player on the ice the whole series
Ajp_18 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:07
#8
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,281
Likes: 1,786
He didn’t have a fun time with the Matthews line and a lot of stuff that hurts his metrics is hard to pick out when watching the game. For example, he really struggled with counter-attacks against (because he’s always pinching with the puck) and does not do much towards breaking up cycles/transitions. That’s why even though it may seem like he’s making no mistakes, the Blue Jackets still give up lots of shots.

Edit: I still think he’s top~20/25 but there’s so many other defenseman who do the visual things he does while actually getting great defensive results.(Mcavoy, Parayko, etc)
bunzy1034 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:07
#9
Shibbal18
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 16,415
Likes: 4,740
Feel like werenski had a bigger impact. Both played well though
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:08
#10
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 2,088
Likes: 812
Who ever said he wasn't? Advanced stats? There's a reason advances stats are a complete joke
LukeCBJ and Bluejackets2000 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:09
#11
best poster
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 4,798
Quoting: Ajp_18
Jones played great vs Toronto, but his advanced stats still suck. Guess you can’t take advanced stats 100% of the time or as the only thing to judge a player on....


Because you need to use advanced stats in context with the game. Some people don't understand what advanced statistics mean, and use them out of context.
Ajp_18 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:10
#12
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,767
Likes: 1,155
Quoting: STLBlues17
He didn’t have a fun time with the Matthews line and a lot of stuff that hurts his metrics is hard to pick out when watching the game. For example, he really struggled with counter-attacks against (because he’s always pinching with the puck) and does not do much towards breaking up cycles/transitions. That’s why even though it may seem like he’s making no mistakes, the Blue Jackets still give up lots of shots.


not saying hes making no mistakes, but just i cant watch this guy and say "doesnt matter what im looking at, his adv stats bad" insane
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:10
#13
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 915
Likes: 190
hes good but overrated
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:11
#14
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,767
Likes: 1,155
Quoting: TheresAlwaysNextYear
Who ever said he wasn't? Advanced stats? There's a reason advances stats are a complete joke


advanced stats people who dont know how to properly watch so they resort to numbers, im not completely agasint it but cant stand the people who use it as the be all and all
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:12
#15
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,281
Likes: 1,786
Quoting: vr1995
not saying hes making no mistakes, but just i cant watch this guy and say "doesnt matter what im looking at, his adv stats bad" insane


He’s not bad, just far more average than he’s made out to be.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:18
#16
best poster
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 4,798
Quoting: STLBlues17
He didn’t have a fun time with the Matthews line and a lot of stuff that hurts his metrics is hard to pick out when watching the game. For example, he really struggled with counter-attacks against (because he’s always pinching with the puck) and does not do much towards breaking up cycles/transitions. That’s why even though it may seem like he’s making no mistakes, the Blue Jackets still give up lots of shots.

Edit: I still think he’s top~20/25 but there’s so many other defenseman who do the visual things he does while actually getting great defensive results.(Mcavoy, Parayko, etc)


From a quick glance, his advanced stats actually show he's very good against high danger changes, which are shots pretty much right in front of the next. To me, that sounds like he's good at preventing chances from cycles, not necessarily ending them though.
Ajp_18 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:19
#17
Caps fan idk why
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 9,300
Likes: 3,453
Quoting: Ajp_18
Jones played great vs Toronto, but his advanced stats still suck. Guess you can’t take advanced stats 100% of the time or as the only thing to judge a player on....


If advanced stats actually mattered teams would value ZAR over Kucherov. I think it’s cool but people in this site go crazy over it. Lol
Ajp_18 and vr1995 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:22
#18
best poster
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 4,798
Quoting: Capitalfail67
If advanced stats actually mattered teams would value ZAR over Kucherov. I think it’s cool but people in this site go crazy over it. Lol


yes, precisely:

cfcompare.png
CD282 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:26
#19
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,281
Likes: 1,786
Quoting: mondo
From a quick glance, his advanced stats actually show he's very good against high danger changes, which are shots pretty much right in front of the next. To me, that sounds like he's good at preventing chances from cycles, not necessarily ending them though.




He’s fine defensively, but from my eye-test he just doesn’t take enough chances to really drive defensive results. He is however really good at the prototypical defensive skill set which is why he looks really good and gets strong pk results.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:26
#20
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7,518
Likes: 3,302
Quoting: STLBlues17
He’s not bad, just far more average than he’s made out to be.


The problem is some advanced stats rely more on the team around them then just the player. When Jones is out with Werenski, most of the time you see Werenski in the middle of the cycle and Jones in front of the net. And when they tried to reverse to the other corner Jones would be behind the net to break it up.

As for the pinch to backup ratio, it goes into the scheme of the coach, torts plays heavy on the forcheck and a heavy back check, that give all of Columbus d the ability to pinch a little more because they know their forwards are getting back if they get beat, but they also now have the luck in the offensive zone if the pinch works.

So as you’re advanced stats see Jones isn’t much above average, the system he plays in and how he plays those stats don’t mean as much.

Advanced stats are useful but should also be taken with a grain of salt. They shouldn’t be the only thing that determines if a player is good or not. As you see some of the things you say Jones is bad at also goes into the system the coach plays.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:30
#21
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,281
Likes: 1,786
Quoting: Ajp_18
The problem is some advanced stats rely more on the team around them then just the player. When Jones is out with Werenski, most of the time you see Werenski in the middle of the cycle and Jones in front of the net. And when they tried to reverse to the other corner Jones would be behind the net to break it up.

As for the pinch to backup ratio, it goes into the scheme of the coach, torts plays heavy on the forcheck and a heavy back check, that give all of Columbus d the ability to pinch a little more because they know their forwards are getting back if they get beat, but they also now have the luck in the offensive zone if the pinch works.

So as you’re advanced stats see Jones isn’t much above average, the system he plays in and how he plays those stats don’t mean as much.

Advanced stats are useful but should also be taken with a grain of salt. They shouldn’t be the only thing that determines if a player is good or not. As you see some of the things you say Jones is bad at also goes into the system the coach plays.


Then why does every Columbus defenseman get better defensive results than him? Look, he’s a great defenseman but no other supposedly top-15 player needs excuses about his team’s scheme to justify his positioning. I mean Colton Parayko player with the worst defenseman in the league for 3 years and got some of the strongest defensive RAPM numbers.
bunzy1034 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:33
#22
Caps fan idk why
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 9,300
Likes: 3,453
Quoting: mondo
yes, precisely:

cfcompare.png


Yeah. I’ve actually used that exact same site and was told that it’s “not the best tool toEvaluate a player”. You are too logical to continue this conversation. You have common sense so this example doesn’t make sense to you lol
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:34
#23
LukeCBJ
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 109
Likes: 28
Quoting: Ajp_18
Jones played great vs Toronto, but his advanced stats still suck. Guess you can’t take advanced stats 100% of the time or as the only thing to judge a player on....


I study data science and can tell you that advanced stats are completely worthless. Seth Jones was the most dominant player that series. 30 minutes a night, putting on a puck separation clinic. Punishing the other team’s stars. There is a reason why Kyle dubas’ advanced stats haven’t helped him when it matters.
Ajp_18 liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:40
#24
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7,518
Likes: 3,302
Quoting: STLBlues17
Then why does every Columbus defenseman get better defensive results than him? Look, he’s a great defenseman but no other supposedly top-15 player needs excuses about his team’s scheme to justify his positioning. I mean Colton Parayko player with the worst defenseman in the league for 3 years and got some of the strongest defensive RAPM numbers.


I’m not trying to make excuses. I’m just saying they aren’t the ONLY way to judge a player. You should use everything. Advanced stats, regular stats and eye test, everything should go into it. That’s all I’m trying to say.
Bluejackets2000 and LukeCBJ liked this.
Aug 10, 2020 at 2:47
#25
Sam
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,281
Likes: 1,786
Quoting: Ajp_18
I’m not trying to make excuses. I’m just saying they aren’t the ONLY way to judge a player. You should use everything. Advanced stats, regular stats and eye test, everything should go into it. That’s all I’m trying to say.


I agree, I just think Jones isn’t a legit top-15 guy. I always compare him to Parayko. Nobody has Parayko in their top-15 despite the fact that he does all the “eye-test” stuff that Jones does, while playing much harder minutes, and getting better results in all areas of the game.
 
Reply
To create a post please Login or Register
Question:
Options:
Submit Poll Edit