please stop only using points to evaluate players

Forums/Armchair-GM

Page 1 of 1

Created by: JeffGorton

Team: 2023-24 Montreal Canadiens

Initial Creation Date: Nov. 19, 2023

Published: Nov. 19, 2023

Salary Cap Mode: Basic

Description

Jackets fans not realizing that Laine gets paid 8,3m for another 3 years. Has worse injury issues and is a defensive liability. If Anderson is a cap dump, then so it Laine.

Laine had 1 good season which was last year in overall 5v5 production. Take the 5 past seasons and Anderson have been better 5v5 overall. Laine is a powerplay merchant.

Now lets count the money owed. Anderson has 23m owed left (no signing bonus) in 4 years. Laine has 25m owed (4m in signing bonus) for 3 years left. So any deal involving the 2, Columbus saves money while not having to pay a signing bonus and gets a player for an extra year.

I havent even mentioned that Anderson actually forechecks, blocks shots, hits and has more takeaways than giveaways. This would also be the 2nd time Laine would be traded over "being lazy". Dude is 6'5 and Anderson has more hits this season than Laine's highest hit total in Columbus

Now this season, Anderson is just getting super unlucky. He has 5.4 expected goals and scored none of them. Laine has 1.5 and scored 2. Laine hasnt taken a High Danger shot yet and only has 2 medium shot danger attempts. Anderson has 6 high danger and 17 medium danger. And if you counter into shooting talent, Laine has score 0.1 goals more than expected and Anderson has scored 5.3 less goals than expected

So the anti anderson folks can call him a cap dump and whatnot, Laine is not much better if not worse. Points arent everything when evaluating players

Trades

MTL

Laine, Patrik

CBJ

Anderson, Josh
Kidney, Riley
2025 2nd round pick (PIT)
2025 3rd round pick (VAN)

Additional Details:

Read description for explanation on Anderson vs Laine

Also cap would have to come back in any Laine trade. No one is gonna eat 8m for nothing, no matter how good the player is

MTL

EDM

MTL

2024 3rd round pick (NJD)

NJD

Montembeault, Samuel

Additional Details:

Devils need a goalie ASAP, yall stink

Buyouts

Karl Alzner: $833,333

Retained Salary Transactions

Joel Edmundson: $1,750,000 (50%)
Jeff Petry: $2,343,750 (50%)

Draft	Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6	Round 7
2024
2025
2026

ROSTER

LONG-TERM OUTLOOK

EMBED

TEXT-EMBED

ROSTER SIZE	SALARY CAP	CAP HIT	OVERAGES	BONUSES	CAP SPACE
22	$83,500,000	$82,867,916	$1,170,000	$710,000	$632,084

Roster

Left Wing	Centre	Right Wing
Harvey-Pinard, Rafaël $1,100,000$1,100,000 LW, RW RFA - 2	Suzuki, Nick $7,875,000$7,875,000 C UFA - 7	Laine, Patrik $8,700,000$8,700,000 C, RW, LW M-NTC UFA - 3
Caufield, Cole $7,850,000$7,850,000 LW, RW UFA - 8	Monahan, Sean $1,985,000$1,985,000 ($15,000$15K) C, LW, RW UFA - 1	Newhook, Alex $2,900,000$2,900,000 C, LW RFA - 4
Pearson, Tanner $3,250,000$3,250,000 LW UFA - 1	Dvorak, Christian $4,450,000$4,450,000 C M-NTC UFA - 2	Gallagher, Brendan $6,500,000$6,500,000 RW, LW M-NTC, NMC UFA - 4
Pezzetta, Michael $812,500$812,500 LW, RW UFA - 2	Evans, Jake $1,700,000$1,700,000 C UFA - 2	Ylönen, Jesse $775,000$775,000 RW, LW RFA - 1

Left Defense	Right Defense	Goaltender
Matheson, Michael $4,875,000$4,875,000 LD M-NTC UFA - 3	Lindström, Gustav $950,000$950,000 RD RFA - 1	Campbell, Jack $5,000,000$5,000,000 G M-NTC UFA - 4
Guhle, Kaiden $863,333$863,333 ($420,000$420K) LD/RD RFA - 2	Barron, Justin $925,000$925,000 ($275,000$275K) RD RFA - 1	Primeau, Cayden $890,000$890,000 G RFA - 2
Kulak, Brett $2,750,000$2,750,000 LD/RD UFA - 3	Kovacevic, Johnathan $766,667$766,667 RD UFA - 2

Scratches	Injured Reserve (IR)	Long Term IR (LTIR)
Xhekaj, Arber $828,333$828,333 LD/RD RFA - 1	Dach, Kirby $3,362,500$3,362,500 C, RW RFA - 3	Price, Carey $10,500,000$10,500,000 G NMC UFA - 3
Armia, Joel $3,400,000$3,400,000 RW, LW UFA - 2	Wideman, Chris $762,500$762,500 RD UFA - 1
	Savard, David $3,500,000$3,500,000 RD UFA - 2

Special Teams

Power Play 1
Caufield, C.		Monahan, S.		Suzuki, N.
	Laine, P.		Guhle, K.

Power Play 2
Newhook, A.		Dvorak, C.		Pearson, T.
	Ylönen, J.		Matheson, M.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:46 p.m.

MoSeider53

Future Norris guy

Joined: Aug. 2022

Posts: 15,605

Likes: 8,625

Stop with the Anderson for Laine BS, Columbus has zero interest in bringing back Anderson. And those pieces alone aren't worth taking Anderson back let alone any value going to Columbus.

jpsnow13, Windjammer, audiodave and 2 others liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:47 p.m.

mv21227

Joined: Jul. 2020

Posts: 10,196

Likes: 9,416

5v5 P/60 by season
23/24: Laine: 1.1 Anderson: 0.27
22/23: Laine: 2.26 Anderson: 1.63
21/22: Laine: 2.53 Anderson: 1.56
20/21: Laine: 1.19 Anderson: 1.69
19/20: Laine: 2.03 Anderson: 0.56
18/19: Laine: 1.35 Anderson: 1.74
17/18: Laine: 2 Anderson: 1.48
16/17: Laine: 2.32 Anderson: 1.79

5v5 points by season
23/24: Laine: 2 Anderson: 1
22/23: Laine: 30 Anderson: 25
21/22: Laine: 34 Anderson: 26
20/21: Laine: 13 Anderson: 20
19/20: Laine: 35 Anderson: 3
18/19: Laine: 24 Anderson: 33
17/18: Laine: 35 Anderson: 23
16/17: Laine: 40 Anderson: 27

Anderson is not a better 5v5 player at all, please research the facts before falsely stating that he is. While Laine isn’t a complete player, he’s far better than Anderson. Just because Anderson hits more and can skate fast doesn’t make him better when he’s awful offensively and defensively

audiodave liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:49 p.m.

JeffGorton

Thread Starter

Jeff Gorton

Joined: Oct. 2020

Posts: 2,228

Likes: 527

Quoting: MoSeider53

Stop with the Anderson for Laine BS, Columbus has zero interest in bringing back Anderson. And those pieces alone aren't worth taking Anderson back let alone any value going to Columbus.

If Anderson is a cap dump then so is Laine. That price is the difference

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:49 p.m.

dk325

Dolzhenkov Is Coming

Joined: Mar. 2022

Posts: 3,651

Likes: 5,282

Said this elsewhere, I'd so much rather the Jackets retain 50% on Laine than have anything to do with the dumpster fire that is Josh Anderson's contract.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:53 p.m.

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Joined: Apr. 2023

Posts: 5,482

Likes: 2,180

Habs aren’t trading Montembeault for a third lol. Especially of they trade Allen. Dude best season is better than Demko’s best season (excluding this year)

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:55 p.m.

JeffGorton

Thread Starter

Jeff Gorton

Joined: Oct. 2020

Posts: 2,228

Likes: 527

Quoting: dk325

Said this elsewhere, I'd so much rather the Jackets retain 50% on Laine than have anything to do with the dumpster fire that is Josh Anderson's contract.

So you’d rather retain 4.35m for 3 years instead of getting more assets (Laine at 50% still doesn’t get Jackets a 1st, sorry he’s ass) and a player in which they could trade with 1 year left?

That’s called horrific asset management and now I know you are a biased fan. Columbus aren’t competing for the next 5 years, they stink. And Laine isn’t getting more than a 3rd and meh prospect even 50% retained

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:56 p.m.

mv21227

Joined: Jul. 2020

Posts: 10,196

Likes: 9,416

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Habs aren’t trading Montembeault for a third lol. Especially of they trade Allen. Dude best season is better than Demko’s best season (excluding this year)

Demko in 21/22 was better than any Montembeault season (Montembeault is still good but Demko was elite in 21/22)

Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:56 p.m.

dk325

Dolzhenkov Is Coming

Joined: Mar. 2022

Posts: 3,651

Likes: 5,282

Quoting: JeffGorton

Good, I'll take the 3rd and meh prospect. Anderson would take six 1sts to trade away. He's awful.

mv21227 and Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:58 p.m.

JeffGorton

Thread Starter

Jeff Gorton

Joined: Oct. 2020

Posts: 2,228

Likes: 527

Quoting: mv21227

As you said “Laine had 1 good season which was last year in overall 5v5 production. Take the 5 past seasons and Anderson have been better 5v5 overall.”

I proved that’s false

But you didn’t, there’s more than points to look at when evaluating players. If not, RNH is better than Crosby. See how stupid that sounds

Nov. 19, 2023 at 8:58 p.m.

#10

mv21227

Joined: Jul. 2020

Posts: 10,196

Likes: 9,416

Quoting: dk325

Good, I'll take the 3rd and meh prospect. Anderson would take six 1sts to trade away. He's awful.

But Anderson can skate fast and he hits!! That definitely wipes out the fact that he’s awful offensively and defensively and has a bottom 5-10 contract in the league! He’s worth multiple 1sts!!

dk325 and squashmaple liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:01 p.m.

#11

Windjammer

Joined: Jul. 2020

Posts: 15,913

Likes: 7,077

No matter how lipstick you put on that pig. Anderson is one of the worst 2 or 3 players in the league on one of the worst 2 or 3 contracts in the league.

Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:03 p.m.

#12

mv21227

Joined: Jul. 2020

Posts: 10,196

Likes: 9,416

Quoting: JeffGorton

But you didn’t, there’s more than points to look at when evaluating players. If not, RNH is better than Crosby. See how stupid that sounds

So what exactly makes Anderson better at 5v5? His awful defensive play? His hitting ability? Because if so then Anderson is better than McDavid. See how stupid that sounds?

Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:09 p.m.

#13

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Joined: Apr. 2023

Posts: 5,482

Likes: 2,180

Edited Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:40 p.m.

Quoting: mv21227

Demko in 21/22 was better than any Montembeault season (Montembeault is still good but Demko was elite in 21/22)

And that is where you are wrong. In 21/22, Demko had 10,5 gsav above expected in 64 games. Last year, Monty had 11,8 gsav above expected in 40 games. Demko is an amazing goalie and definitely a top 10 goalie in the league, but apart from this season, Monty had better advanced stats

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:12 p.m.

#14

MoSeider53

Future Norris guy

Joined: Aug. 2022

Posts: 15,605

Likes: 8,625

Quoting: JeffGorton

If Anderson is a cap dump then so is Laine. That price is the difference

Laine isn't leaving one bad team for another, I seriously doubt that Montreal is on his 21 team trade list.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:17 p.m.

#15

JaredOfLondon

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 19,749

Likes: 7,382

pretending points dont mean anything when they are scored on the power play is pretty funny. The reason 5v5 is used is because it is most often an indicator of continued production as power play points are volatile. Laine is, at the very least, a reliable power play generator on top of being a pretty decent 5v5 one and guys who score at a 30+ goal rate consistantly their entire career are infact, much more valuable than ones that score at a 20 goal rate. Then add in the fact that Laine is a significantly better play maker.
Is Laine worth his contract? Probably not, but he's closer to value than anderson has ever been

Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:46 p.m.

#16

Campabee

Joined: Nov. 2018

Posts: 15,556

Likes: 6,455

Quoting: mv21227

I think you are completely missing the point of the thread, he isn't saying Josh is better than Patrick (at least I hope he isn't). I think what he is saying is if you are just taking cap hits vs point production and calling Anderson a cap dump then the same thing can be said about Laine. Neither are producing very well right now but even though both are struggling it doesn't make either of them a cap dump. The OP's point is that you can't just call one player a cap dump and another player not when they both have similar 5v5 stats. You have to go all the way back to 17/18 to find a season where one player had more than 10 5 vs 5 points over the other, excluding of course the one season Anderson only played 26 games due to injury.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 9:59 p.m.

#17

drambui

Joined: Feb. 2022

Posts: 3,840

Likes: 2,515

''points arent everything''

lets be real, points are most things lol.

i think 99% of habs fan would trade anderson for laine.

one is more of a cap dump then the other it seems!

hits are are important for role players, not first line fowards.

Billy316 and Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 19, 2023 at 11:28 p.m.

#18

dgibb10

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,017

Likes: 3,179

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Last year that 11.8 ranked Monty 13th (slightly above average starter)
demko ranked 9th in 20-21, 13th in 21-22, and is 1st right now.

3 years of quality play vs 1

Nov. 20, 2023 at 4:06 a.m.

#19

Billy316

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 2,607

Likes: 744

I support what you're trying to say
I am an Anderson guy with his picture framed on my wall beside our SCF WCF title picture and Caufields 1st goal
But i'd say you picked the wrong person to compare values to as they're worlds apart.
Only thing they share is they're Power Forwards that Can Skate and on Every other level Laine's an All Star / Super Star and Andersons a Role Player/ Leader
Thats a Huuuuuuuuuge gap in Value if Anderson was achieving 100% up to his full Contract to the point he was seen at a Cap Value. . .

Anderson is Dustin Brown, Great value to exactly 1 team only and we should respect that Loyalty.
Gallagher on the other hand if we can keep Healthy the full year will have Trade Value going into next year as long as he doesnt slump when Monahan leaves at the TDL
But thats a debate for another time.

I can say nothing we have will satisfy CBJ Management or fans. At least not anything we're willing to give up anyways.
Roy i think would be the cheapest in terms of top moving pieces in the deal , that MTL could walk away with.
TBH i'd rather have Roy

Laine just dont make sense
Holloway, Turcotte and McBain are all smarter options to target
IF you want Top Shelf Laine level Star Power then all in on Zegras would set us up for a decade

Nov. 20, 2023 at 4:19 a.m.

#20

Billy316

Jesus Christ Is King

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 2,607

Likes: 744

Quoting: drambui

Yes and No
Making more then Suzuki for less Production
I mean Laine's got more Value but both are about 2m overpaid vs their on ice production or role playing.
I mean Andersons snake bit and one hell of a pole smoker this year but he'll eventually get some of those tips from in front of the net.
Really i think MSL needs to have the balls to put him with Pezz-Evans on 4th line and thats when he will start scoring again
Once he gets going he's a momentum player who has a lot of multi point nights. Some nights his focus is offense, sometimes its fighting for pucks and cycling them back before screening the goalie

Nov. 20, 2023 at 8:39 a.m.

#21

Fox_Czar_Cup

Joined: Apr. 2016

Posts: 7,996

Likes: 1,453

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Lol. One is a good nhl starter, the other hopes to stick as a backup

Nov. 20, 2023 at 6:26 p.m.

#22

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Joined: Apr. 2023

Posts: 5,482

Likes: 2,180

Quoting: Fox_Czar_Cup

Lol. One is a good nhl starter, the other hopes to stick as a backup

That isn’t what stats says, unless you are implying Demko isn’t better than a backup, which is insanely stupid

Nov. 20, 2023 at 6:59 p.m.

#23

dgibb10

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,017

Likes: 3,179

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

This year: demko by a mile
Last year: monty (demko injured)
21-22: Demko by a mile
20-21: demko by a mile, monty not even cracking the show
19-20: demko by a mile
18-19: Both bad, demko slightly better

Fox_Czar_Cup liked this.

Nov. 20, 2023 at 7:10 p.m.

#24

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Joined: Apr. 2023

Posts: 5,482

Likes: 2,180

Quoting: dgibb10

This year Demko is on another level so we are not gonna take those stats.
Monty’s best year >>>> Demko’s best (excluding the present one
Monty’s second best year <<<<<< Demko’s second best

Considering Montembeault only has 2 complete years, that is pretty good for a second year rookie

Nov. 20, 2023 at 11:34 p.m.

#25

dgibb10

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,017

Likes: 3,179

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Montembault and Demko are literally both 27.

"If I take out this year where demko has been fantastic"

Ranking years:
1. Demko this year
2. Demko 21-22
3. Demko 20-21
4. Monty 22-23
5. Demko 22-23

Page 1 of 1

DISPLAY SETTING

BETTING ODDS

LOCALE

ARCHIVE

CBA

CALCULATORS

FANTASY HOCKEY TOOLS

TOOLS

PLAYERS

WESTERN CONFERENCE

EASTERN CONFERENCE

INTERACTIVE FEATURES

Forums/Armchair-GM