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2021/22 NHL Season Discussion thread #4 - Eichel?

Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:08 a.m.
#926
BeterChiarelli
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Ban Price trades
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Quoting: SevenLeg
I usually try to take time to debate with people, but sometimes it's just too far gone. The guy thinks Koskinen is better than Price.


Price is genuinely awful in the regular season, especially over the past 4 years. He's a playoff machine and a tournament-performing goaltender for sure, I won't discredit that, but people have a very unrealistic view of what Koskinen is. He's rolling with a .920sv% and that's kind of where his numbers have been his entire NHL career. He's just overpaid and has issues with his glove hand.

Just because Price WAS the best goaltender in the NHL, doesn't mean he still is.
Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:23 a.m.
#927
SevenLeg
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
Price is genuinely awful in the regular season, especially over the past 4 years. He's a playoff machine and a tournament-performing goaltender for sure, I won't discredit that, but people have a very unrealistic view of what Koskinen is. He's rolling with a .920sv% and that's kind of where his numbers have been his entire NHL career. He's just overpaid and has issues with his glove hand.

Just because Price WAS the best goaltender in the NHL, doesn't mean he still is.


1. I've never said Carey Price is the best goalie, but he's still a top goalie, which Koskinen is not. And I'm usually hard on Carey Price.
2. Carey Price's numbers were low because he had an astronomic workload until Jake Allen arrived last season. The last time he had a half-competent backup goalie was Peter 'Budaj in the early 2010s and had elite stats regardless. But at some point it's tearing, his stats fell when the whole team fell. He got injured at the beginning of last season and came back hot, very, very hot.

In TheAthletic's Anonymous panel of GMs and coaches rates all 32 starters, Carey Price is the 4th best (Tier 2) goaltender in the league, ranked by coaches and GMs themselves, those who determine whether or not a goaltender has value, not us fans on CapFriendly. Over the past 5 seasons, he averaged Tier 1.43.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:24 a.m.
#928
NoVaSpartan
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Since there is a discussion about Koskinen, I thought I would bring back this gem.


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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:29 a.m.
#929
zk97
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Quoting: NoVaSpartan
Since there is a discussion about Koskinen, I thought I would bring back this gem.




now imagine if the oilers got koskinen for 1.5
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:32 a.m.
#930
SevenLeg
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Quoting: Zuki9797
now imagine if the oilers got koskinen for 1.5


A better goalie than Price for 1.5?! That's a steal!
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:34 a.m.
#931
A_Habs_fan
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Quoting: SevenLeg
A better goalie than Price for 1.5?! That's a steal!


Well if Koskinen was making 1.5, no one would care how he does since he'd be cheap, but he's not better than Price
Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:37 a.m.
#932
BeterChiarelli
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Quoting: SevenLeg
1. I've never said Carey Price is the best goalie, but he's still a top goalie, which Koskinen is not. And I'm usually hard on Carey Price.
2. Carey Price's numbers were low because he had an astronomic workload until Jake Allen arrived last season. The last time he had a half-competent backup goalie was Peter 'Budaj in the early 2010s and had elite stats regardless. But at some point it's tearing, his stats fell when the whole team fell. He got injured at the beginning of last season and came back hot, very, very hot.

In TheAthletic's Anonymous panel of GMs and coaches rates all 32 starters, Carey Price is the 4th best (Tier 2) goaltender in the league, ranked by coaches and GMs themselves, those who determine whether or not a goaltender has value, not us fans on CapFriendly. Over the past 5 seasons, he averaged Tier 1.43.


I don't disagree with that: in a Space Jam aliens wanna play hockey for the fate of the world scenario Price is the first goaltender I'm turning to. Koskinen would be one of the last.

In the context of trading for Price and dumping Koskinen this season, or acquiring Price in later seasons, I'm not spending assets to downgrade on Koskinen now or pay for the husk years of Carey.

I think both of those statements can occupy the same validity.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:38 a.m.
#933
SevenLeg
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NAzDlrc.png

If y'all know what Chandler Stephenson changed in his diet in 19-20 that'd be appreciated, thanks.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:39 a.m.
#934
SevenLeg
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Quoting: BeterChiarelli
I don't disagree with that: in a Space Jam aliens wanna play hockey for the fate of the world scenario Price is the first goaltender I'm turning to. Koskinen would be one of the last.

In the context of trading for Price and dumping Koskinen this season, or acquiring Price in later seasons, I'm not spending assets to downgrade on Koskinen now or pay for the husk years of Carey.

I think both of those statements can occupy the same validity.


But the said argument was never about a trade scenario. It was Price and Koskinen, no age, no contract, no trade value, no retention. Just a goalie against the other.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 10:40 a.m.
#935
BeterChiarelli
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Quoting: SevenLeg
But the said argument was never about a trade scenario. It was Price and Koskinen, no age, no contract, no trade value, no retention. Just a goalie against the other.


Oh yeah that's just straight up wack.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:12 a.m.
#936
yikes
EklundCelebriniSmith
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I’m a fan of analytics; but I agree very much that context matters and more importantly watching the game matters. Which this is often neglected/ ignored just too look at
🤓numbers🤓

Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:15 a.m.
#937
A_Habs_fan
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Quoting: yikes
I’m a fan of analytics; but I agree very much that context matters and more importantly watching the game matters. Which this is often neglected/ ignored just too look at
🤓numbers🤓



Yep, we all know analytics should be mixed with the eye test
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:18 a.m.
#938
yikes
EklundCelebriniSmith
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Quoting: A_Habs_fan
Yep, we all know analytics should be mixed with the eye test


Yeah it’s just odd that Bacon is being so blind towards analytics that he seemingly hasn’t been watching the games..

We have 4 rookie defenders and he’s expecting Mario playing 32min basically putting up Hedman numbers lol. Mario himself is basically a rookie (exaggeration but you get what I mean, 128gp for a Dman is very very very fresh).
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:20 a.m.
#939
SevenLeg
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Quoting: yikes
I’m a fan of analytics; but I agree very much that context matters and more importantly watching the game matters. Which this is often neglected/ ignored just too look at
🤓numbers🤓



Patrick Bacon always takes it too far. I don't bother read what he says since he said Henrik Lundqvist was always an average goalie.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:23 a.m.
#940
yikes
EklundCelebriniSmith
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Quoting: SevenLeg
Patrick Bacon always takes it too far. I don't bother read what he says since he said Henrik Lundqvist was always an average goalie.


Watching Lundqvist lose year after year in the playoffs/ conference finals/ actual finals was heartbreaking and I’m not a NYR fan.

Now back on topic; I dislike the whole usage of goaltenders and analytics because a lot of analytics point towards luck/ not needing an elite goalie because of the sheer disparity and consistency of goalies. I don’t think analytics should be used on goalies whatsoever imo. You can watch and see. If you’ve never been a goalie/ don’t like watching goalies you miss out on a lot. Goalies shouldn’t be subject too breaking down into numbers because the position is just so full of intangibles and you can see a good goalie without numbers. Yes some numbers should be used but breaking down the position into analytics is too far imo. Like SV% is actually useful and quality of shots/ danger are useful but not too much more.
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:27 a.m.
#941
SevenLeg
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Quoting: yikes
Watching Lundqvist lose year after year in the playoffs/ conference finals/ actual finals was heartbreaking and I’m not a NYR fan.

Now back on topic; I dislike the whole usage of goaltenders and analytics because a lot of analytics point towards luck/ not needing an elite goalie because of the sheer disparity and consistency of goalies. I don’t think analytics should be used on goalies whatsoever imo. You can watch and see. If you’ve never been a goalie/ don’t like watching goalies you miss out on a lot. Goalies shouldn’t be subject too breaking down into numbers because the position is just so full of intangibles and you can see a good goalie without numbers. Yes some numbers should be used but breaking down the position into analytics is too far imo. Like SV% is actually useful and quality of shots/ danger are useful but not too much more.






In other words:

Henrik Lundqvist was pretty good
But he sucked
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:29 a.m.
#942
Db1899
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yikes liked this.
Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:29 a.m.
#943
A_Habs_fan
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Quoting: SevenLeg



Lol, Lundqvist was a great goalie, apart from his 2 last years, he always had over a .910 SV% in the regular season and we all know how good he was
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:31 a.m.
#944
NoVaSpartan
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How bad is this @Bobcat205


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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:33 a.m.
#945
A_Habs_fan
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Quoting: NoVaSpartan
How bad is this Bobcat205




Domi was in protocol last time i checked and it's a practice so missing players isn't too concerning yet, however, if Voracek is out for some time, that hurts CBJ a lot
Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:39 a.m.
#946
MitchMarner_16
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Quoting: SevenLeg
I usually try to take time to debate with people, but sometimes it's just too far gone. The guy thinks Koskinen is better than Price.


hes obviously not worth your time.

anybody with two brain cells can see that price is way better, and hes being ignorant and stubborn. Obv hes entitled to his opinion, but his opinion really has no evidence
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:41 a.m.
#947
MitchMarner_16
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Quoting: SevenLeg




In other words:

Henrik Lundqvist was pretty good
But he sucked


lmao he said two different things to try not get anybody mad
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:42 a.m.
#948
MitchMarner_16
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Quoting: NoVaSpartan
How bad is this Bobcat205




why you gotta give the man a heart attack? its not even noon!
Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:43 a.m.
#949
Bobcat205
cautious optimism
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Quoting: NoVaSpartan
How bad is this Bobcat205




This team be like

5tjhpy.jpg
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Nov. 9, 2021 at 11:44 a.m.
#950
A_Habs_fan
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Quoting: Bobcat205
This team be like

5tjhpy.jpg


That's the Habs, Vegas and Pens in a normal year
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