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2023 NHL Offseason Discussion Thread #3 - Free Agent Frenzy

One of the more popular debates online recently has been Malkin vs Kane. Who do you guys think had the better career? I'm going with Geno
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Jul. 19, 2023 at 7:41 p.m.
#1176
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Quoting: aadoyle
So I made a trade idea that helps both OTT and Van

Garland for Joseph and a 3rd

Van gets cap space to bring Pearson back off LTIR and Ottawa gets someone to fill in a spot that Debrincat left


Would be a solid deal for Ottawa, imo.
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:43 a.m.
#1177
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 3:27 a.m.
#1178
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Quoting: aadoyle




Thats the reason he made the apoligy and went into substance program...
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:25 p.m.
#1179
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After seeing a discussion about Dahlin vs Heiskanen vs Hughes vs Seider, I’m starting to think that people don’t even know who Quinn Hughes is.
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:31 p.m.
#1180
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Quoting: Juiceman
After seeing a discussion about Dahlin vs Heiskanen vs Hughes vs Seider, I’m starting to think that people don’t even know who Quinn Hughes is.


Seider is so overated
Jul. 20, 2023 at 1:32 p.m.
#1181
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Quoting: ARMCHAIRGMOFTHEYEAR
Seider is so overated


He was that hit inflation. If he hits then that’s basically like +10 points
Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:29 p.m.
#1182
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Quoting: HelmutCool
Thats the reason he made the apoligy and went into substance program...

Interesting angle, didn't think of that.
I do wonder if Galchenyuk would stoop so low as to issue a groveling apology and enter the assistance program just to make a potential NHLPA grievance case stronger, if that's what you're suggesting.
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 2:35 p.m.
#1183
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Happy 50th birthday to this absolute GOAT
original.jpg?1384583896
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 5:58 p.m.
#1184
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https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/how-canucks-get-most-out-of-brock-boeser

I've been a Brock Boeser believer for a while now. I really hope he proves me right next season. I know I said this last season, but I know he can be a better player than what he showed
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 6:28 p.m.
#1185
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there-have-been-two-forwards-better-than-kuzmenko-v0-wmq6vegq4xsa1.jpg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a96c4ed6fdebee4b14dd388ab646352441acc95

Kinda sucks when a player like this is likely worth future considerations
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 6:34 p.m.
#1186
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Quoting: Tintin
Interesting angle, didn't think of that.
I do wonder if Galchenyuk would stoop so low as to issue a groveling apology and enter the assistance program just to make a potential NHLPA grievance case stronger, if that's what you're suggesting.


Too many people tend to view DUI look at it as a "no harm, no foul" situation, but the "no harm" condition is just blind luck. If you close your eyes and fire off a clip from a gun in random directions while walking down the street, it's not a lesser crime if you happen not to hit any people or property. DUI should be viewed in the same light.

He obviously needs help and I have no problem with him using the program whether or not his motives are pure. If he at least never operates a vehicle under the influence again, that's a win for everyone.
Jul. 20, 2023 at 7:20 p.m.
#1187
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Quoting: Juiceman
there-have-been-two-forwards-better-than-kuzmenko-v0-wmq6vegq4xsa1.jpg?width=1013&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a96c4ed6fdebee4b14dd388ab646352441acc95

Kinda sucks when a player like this is likely worth future considerations


Honestly Van should call OTT and say Joseph and 3rd for him. Its better than nothing

This allows Van to bring Pearson back and not lose out entirely on value
Jul. 20, 2023 at 7:23 p.m.
#1188
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Quoting: aadoyle
Honestly Van should call OTT and say Joseph and 3rd for him. Its better than nothing

This allows Van to bring Pearson back and not lose out entirely on value


That is worse than nothing. Rather pay Garland 5 mil than Joseph at 3 mil. FC is better than taking on more bad contracts
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 10:16 p.m.
#1189
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Amirov Forever
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image.png

Looks like Coyotes draft pick Dmitri Simashev approves of a potential move to Quebec 😂
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Jul. 20, 2023 at 11:21 p.m.
#1190
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Edited Jul. 20, 2023 at 11:26 p.m.
Quoting: HelmutCool
Thats the reason he made the apoligy and went into substance program...


Likely correct, although embarrassment and guilt have led more towards improvement than not.

I wonder if a line for contract termination is here:

Player commits substance related offense, is booked on misdemeanor charges, and has not appeared before a judge.

Once the precedence is set, it is set.

I’m going to predict that the Coyotes have to honor the contract (or that Galchenyuk agrees to terminate, likely against the advice of the nhlpa and his agent).

The NHL promotes a culture of alcoholism by providing (team by team variations) all players access to essentially unlimited alcohol in player lounges, air travel, bus travel, and team events, incorporates more alcohol marketing/advertsing than any other marketable product including itself, and has a history of skaters who have required long term substance abuse rehabilitation.

You don’t get both.

You want the alcohol you get what alcohol does. It’s the consequence of a choice. Moronic by the way to provide it to professional athletes period, it is absolutely awful for the human body.
Jul. 20, 2023 at 11:37 p.m.
#1191
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If Sebastian Aho gets 9.5+ mil on his next contract, there is no way Elias Pettersson is signing for less than 11. Oh boy…
Jul. 21, 2023 at 12:23 p.m.
#1192
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Edited Jul. 21, 2023 at 12:31 p.m.
Using some projections on depth charts and for the 3 remaining RFA goalies
Before you ask: I used these for reference: Swayman ($4,454,000), Samsonov ($3,595,000), and Gustavsson ($3,442,000) - these are online estimates from 3rd party sites not mine.

Calculating the total cap hit for all 32 NHL teams made for goalies it arrives at 8.67% of the team upper limit.

The average NHL "investment" in goaltending is $7,240,027.
The highest is Florida with $14,825,000 (I added the "excess" of Stolarz beyond the minimum contract for a 3rd goalie).
The lowest is Los Angeles with $2,600,000.
The two teams closest to the median are: Anaheim and Nashville.

The actual cap hits arrive at $88,302 per start.

Putting this into what I see as the 6 categories of goalies:
Type................Starts Range......Avg.......Avg AAV........%Starts
Workhorse.....59 to 72...............66.......$5,827,921....80%
1A....................47 to 58...............53.......$4,679,997....65%
Tandem..........36 to 46...............41........$3,620,375...50%
1B....................24 to 35...............29........$2,560,753...35%
Backup............10 to 23...............16........$1,412,829 ...20%
Spot Duty.........1 to 9....................9.........$ 794,717...~

Every team/coach/goalie has some variables but I have found this helpful in the off-season to make predictions for expected usage.

Vasilevsky/Hellebuyck/Saros definitely fit into that "Workhorse" category and their NHL teams have pretty much signed "Backup" deals for players that aren't expected to play much. Lankinen is a slight exception but Saros' cheap deal still puts them back at NHL average (as they were right at the median).
Markstrom and Gibson had been in that category but their teams seem to be shifting towards 1A/1B model to alleviate their workload and impact on the team.

Sorokin, Shesterkin, and Oettinger seem to be the next crop of workhorses but had their first year last year so we'll see if it sticks (highly likely with those 3).

Georgiev and Binnington reached that level last year but I think that was due to injuries/performance from the backups and the teams would like to see 1A/1B usage if possible (but I could be wrong). Binnington was certainly paid to be a workhorse a few years ago.

Predicting tandems is much more difficult but I would suspect Carolina fits into that type of usage (instead of the 1A/1B model); Buffalo looks that way right now as well. Both could probably be "Trio" instead of "Tandem". The Kings were always very much in favor of "Tandem" deployment; but Cal Peterson's implosion screwed that up last year; we'll see how McLellan handles his reunion with Talbot (who famously did not want to be in a tandem in Minnesota).

I'm watching the Devils (barring any trade) with Vanecek/Schmid for their expected usage as well; based on the playoff performance a Tandem might be in the cards.

If anyone has any feedback on this (especially coming from the team) I would appreciate it and will update this. Thanks
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Jul. 21, 2023 at 1:24 p.m.
#1193
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Quoting: HockeyScotty
Using some projections on depth charts and for the 3 remaining RFA goalies
Before you ask: I used these for reference: Swayman ($4,454,000), Samsonov ($3,595,000), and Gustavsson ($3,442,000) - these are online estimates from 3rd party sites not mine.

Calculating the total cap hit for all 32 NHL teams made for goalies it arrives at 8.67% of the team upper limit.

The average NHL "investment" in goaltending is $7,240,027.
The highest is Florida with $14,825,000 (I added the "excess" of Stolarz beyond the minimum contract for a 3rd goalie).
The lowest is Los Angeles with $2,600,000.
The two teams closest to the median are: Anaheim and Nashville.

The actual cap hits arrive at $88,302 per start.

Putting this into what I see as the 6 categories of goalies:
Type................Starts Range......Avg.......Avg AAV........%Starts
Workhorse.....59 to 72...............66.......$5,827,921....80%
1A....................47 to 58...............53.......$4,679,997....65%
Tandem..........36 to 46...............41........$3,620,375...50%
1B....................24 to 35...............29........$2,560,753...35%
Backup............10 to 23...............16........$1,412,829 ...20%
Spot Duty.........1 to 9....................9.........$ 794,717...~

Every team/coach/goalie has some variables but I have found this helpful in the off-season to make predictions for expected usage.

Vasilevsky/Hellebuyck/Saros definitely fit into that "Workhorse" category and their NHL teams have pretty much signed "Backup" deals for players that aren't expected to play much. Lankinen is a slight exception but Saros' cheap deal still puts them back at NHL average (as they were right at the median).
Markstrom and Gibson had been in that category but their teams seem to be shifting towards 1A/1B model to alleviate their workload and impact on the team.

Sorokin, Shesterkin, and Oettinger seem to be the next crop of workhorses but had their first year last year so we'll see if it sticks (highly likely with those 3).

Georgiev and Binnington reached that level last year but I think that was due to injuries/performance from the backups and the teams would like to see 1A/1B usage if possible (but I could be wrong). Binnington was certainly paid to be a workhorse a few years ago.

Predicting tandems is much more difficult but I would suspect Carolina fits into that type of usage (instead of the 1A/1B model); Buffalo looks that way right now as well. Both could probably be "Trio" instead of "Tandem". The Kings were always very much in favor of "Tandem" deployment; but Cal Peterson's implosion screwed that up last year; we'll see how McLellan handles his reunion with Talbot (who famously did not want to be in a tandem in Minnesota).

I'm watching the Devils (barring any trade) with Vanecek/Schmid for their expected usage as well; based on the playoff performance a Tandem might be in the cards.

If anyone has any feedback on this (especially coming from the team) I would appreciate it and will update this. Thanks


I think Swayman and Sammy will come out at 3.4m x 2 years, Gustavsson will be 4.25m x 4 years

Swayman was basically in the rumour mill till Hall got traded and I dont think Boston wants almost 10mill in goalies. 3.4 is pretty good for a guy like him. Same with Sammy.

Gustavsson though I feel will get more money and term as for a while that man was scary and even in the playoffs till the coach was dumb and took him out game 2 looked good.

Now if Sammy is gonna make more that screams Murray to LTIR as even if u buy him out anything higher than 3.4m is not doable as u would be over the cap with a 20 man team
Jul. 21, 2023 at 4:21 p.m.
#1194
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Quoting: aadoyle
I think Swayman and Sammy will come out at 3.4m x 2 years, Gustavsson will be 4.25m x 4 years

Swayman was basically in the rumour mill till Hall got traded and I dont think Boston wants almost 10mill in goalies. 3.4 is pretty good for a guy like him. Same with Sammy.

Gustavsson though I feel will get more money and term as for a while that man was scary and even in the playoffs till the coach was dumb and took him out game 2 looked good.

Now if Sammy is gonna make more that screams Murray to LTIR as even if u buy him out anything higher than 3.4m is not doable as u would be over the cap with a 20 man team


Yeah I wasn't trying to make a case for their AAV; just trying to plug in a number for the bigger picture of goalie investment and usage.

Even using your numbers in aggregate it is still about the same.
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Jul. 21, 2023 at 7:37 p.m.
#1195
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Edited Jul. 22, 2023 at 12:50 a.m.
https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1682530131280052225

Kind of surprised it wasnt like a 7.5m x 8 year deal
Jul. 22, 2023 at 10:31 a.m.
#1196
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Edited Jul. 22, 2023 at 2:11 p.m.
Samsonov is super interesting arb:

Contract is for final RFA year.

Past 2 years = ~he’s true 1a/1b netminder with near exact 50% starts and some stat categories he is league leading. Given the goaltending situation (Murray) in Toronto, it is reasonable to think that his role would expand a bit.

Comparables show the first UFA year should be between 5-6 million current dollars for a 50 game starter with above average performance.

There simply aren’t many viable comparable contracts. (Final rfa year, 50% starts, dominant stats, great team). Many alternatives either start much less/more often, have worse performance, are on absolute dumpster fire teams, or are already locked up to term signed earlier in the cycle.

I feel Samsonov is extremely fortunate that Adin Hill, similar career path sorta, yet far fewer games played, less dominant stats, received 4.9 x 2 BUT those are UFA years and he won the cup. Samsonov should not be paid as a UFA when he is not one. But it does set the equation for me, and validates the agent working on behalf of his client.

Im going to guess Samsonov is awarded 3.0-3.1:

based on age 26 1 year being 75% of age 27 1 year due to contract status. I think the Leafs number is closer to the reality than the players number. He accesses UFA at 27 which is ideal, plays on a great team, should have an increased role, and performed well as a 1a/1b.

If his performance continues with a modest jump in starts, next off-season should be 5-6 x 4-5 (Linus Ullmark). If he improves stat wise while increasing starts he could be near that 6 mil mark or above and 5-8 years becomes viable. (Jordan Binnington). If he doesn’t fair well with an increased load he is worth 3 or less, because he enters a group that has a lot of members already. He shouldn’t get anywhere near 5 right now as an rfa who hasn’t faced the increased workload yet.
Jul. 22, 2023 at 1:07 p.m.
#1197
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https://thesco.re/44Byy0K

Karlsson confirms talks with SEA PIT CAR TOR
Jul. 22, 2023 at 1:44 p.m.
#1198
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Quoting: pinslack
https://thesco.re/44Byy0K

Karlsson confirms talks with SEA PIT CAR TOR


Honestly of all 4 teams SEA makes the most sense rn

As Pitt doesnt have a PKG that also benefits SJS

Toronto has Rielly and Klingberg

And Carolina has Burns and when those two were together they hindered each other at times
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Jul. 22, 2023 at 2:03 p.m.
#1199
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Quoting: CantStopWontStop
Samsonov is super interesting arb:

Contract is for final RFA year.

Past 2 years = ~he’s true 1a/1b netminder with near exact 50% starts and some stat categories he is league leading.

Given the goaltending situation (Murray) in Toronto, it is reasonable to think that his role would expand a bit beyond 42 starts next season.

Comparables show the first UFA year should be between 5-6 million current dollars for a 50 game starter with above average performance.

There simply aren’t many viable comparable contracts. (Final rfa year, 50% starts, dominant stats, great team). Many alternatives either start much less/more often, have worse performance, are on absolute dumpster fire teams, or are already locked up to term signed earlier in the cycle.

I feel Samsonov is extremely fortunate that Adin Hill, similar career path sorta, yet far fewer games played, less dominant stats, received 4.9 x 2 BUT those are UFA years and he won the cup. Samsonov should not be paid as a UFA when he is not one. But it does set the equation for me, and validates the agent working on behalf of his client.

Im going to guess Samsonov is awarded 3.0-3.1 based on age 26 1 year being 75% of age 27 1 year due to contract status. I think the Leafs number is closer to the reality than the players number. He accesses UFA at 27 which is ideal, plays on a great team, should have an increased role, and performed well as a 1a/1b.

If his performance continues with a modest jump in starts, next off-season should be 5-6 x 4-5 (Linus Ullmark). If he improves stat wise while increasing starts he could be near that 6 mil mark or above and 5-8 years becomes viable. (Jordan Binnington). If he doesn’t fair well with an increased load he is worth 3 or less, because he enters a group that has a lot of members already. He shouldn’t get anywhere near 5 right now as an rfa who hasn’t faced the increased workload, but he has the standing to ask for it.


And if the Leafs lowball him for 1 year they risk overspending in future years and missing out on a couple million AAV that could be needed for Matthews extension or worse losing a good goalie to UFA and starting over.
Jul. 22, 2023 at 2:15 p.m.
#1200
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Quoting: HockeyScotty
And if the Leafs lowball him for 1 year they risk overspending in future years and missing out on a couple million AAV that could be needed for Matthews extension or worse losing a good goalie to UFA and starting over.


I don’t feel 2.4 (reported leaf offer) is that much of a low ball. It is much closer to what I’d guess he should be paid than 4.9 (the reported ask).

The problem is that there is a lot of risk just assuming he’d perform well enough to have 55 starts a year, so entering a term deal now is questionable. But a necessary prove it year absolutely could make him unaffordable. I typically prefer risk off, but others prefer the gamble.
 
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